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Author Topic:   Department Of Homeland Security Inaction At the Top
nator
Member (Idle past 276 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 121 of 297 (241499)
09-08-2005 7:49 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Tal
09-07-2005 4:42 PM


Re: Reality vs Belief based
We invaded Iraq because leadership believed

quote:
Wrong. Everyone believed.

The millions of protesters in the US and around the world didn't believe.

Most of Europe didn't believe, and those that gave us the benefit of the doubt were clearly unwise to do so.

None of my friends or family believed.

Many posters on this board didn't believe.

I didn't believe.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Tal, posted 09-07-2005 4:42 PM Tal has not yet responded

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 122 of 297 (241510)
09-08-2005 8:48 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by jar
09-07-2005 12:54 PM


Re: Reality vs Belief based
We did not prepare for Katrina because belief. Folk believed it was too expensive to prepare for a 300 year storm.

This comment seems a little unfair to me. The damage caused by tropical weather is too unpredictable.

There are some things one cannnot prepare for.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by jar, posted 09-07-2005 12:54 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by jar, posted 09-08-2005 8:55 PM robinrohan has responded

jar
Member
Posts: 30935
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 123 of 297 (241514)
09-08-2005 8:55 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by robinrohan
09-08-2005 8:48 PM


Re: Reality vs Belief based
Oh Yeah?

Let's look at that.

What would happen when a major hurricane made landfall just to the east of New Orleans had been widely known for many, many decades. It was as common knowledge as what will happen when the major earthquake hits LA.

What would it cost to have plans in place to relocate approxiamtely 1-2 Million refugees?

Are you seriously saying that having such a contingency plan sitting on the shelf and updated every couple years is beyond reasonable consideration?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by robinrohan, posted 09-08-2005 8:48 PM robinrohan has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by robinrohan, posted 09-08-2005 9:09 PM jar has responded

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 124 of 297 (241518)
09-08-2005 9:09 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by jar
09-08-2005 8:55 PM


Re: Reality vs Belief based
Are you seriously saying that having such a contingency plan sitting on the shelf and updated every couple years is beyond reasonable consideration?

I don't know what sort of "plan" we could have. Do we have a plan that matters for the "big one" in California?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by jar, posted 09-08-2005 8:55 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by jar, posted 09-08-2005 9:15 PM robinrohan has responded

jar
Member
Posts: 30935
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 125 of 297 (241521)
09-08-2005 9:15 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by robinrohan
09-08-2005 9:09 PM


Re: Reality vs Belief based
Hell no we don't. Or for any of the other similar natural and man made disaster that WILL happen.

The failure borders on criminality IMHO and is certainly shortsighted and foolish.

If you knew there might be 1-2 million refugees, what would be the first item YOU would put on the list?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by robinrohan, posted 09-08-2005 9:09 PM robinrohan has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by robinrohan, posted 09-08-2005 9:19 PM jar has responded

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 126 of 297 (241522)
09-08-2005 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by jar
09-08-2005 9:15 PM


Re: Reality vs Belief based
If you knew there might be 1-2 million refugees, what would be the first item YOU would put on the list?

There's not too much one can do BEFORE it happens. Now I agree that the response was unacceptable, but I don't know that some plan way beforehand would have helped.

It's not like we can have a thousand buses just hanging about on the offchance that something might happen.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by jar, posted 09-08-2005 9:15 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by jar, posted 09-08-2005 9:29 PM robinrohan has responded

jar
Member
Posts: 30935
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 127 of 297 (241523)
09-08-2005 9:29 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by robinrohan
09-08-2005 9:19 PM


Re: Reality vs Belief based
But what can we do?

Would it be possible to have lists of all the military bases that have housing that could be co-oped?

This message has been edited by jar, 09-08-2005 08:30 PM


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by robinrohan, posted 09-08-2005 9:19 PM robinrohan has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by robinrohan, posted 09-08-2005 10:04 PM jar has responded

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 128 of 297 (241528)
09-08-2005 10:04 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by jar
09-08-2005 9:29 PM


Re: Reality vs Belief based
But what can we do?

Not a lot ahead of time.

And I might add, even in regard to the levees, I find it a bit unfair to blame people for a lack of prescience.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by jar, posted 09-08-2005 9:29 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by jar, posted 09-08-2005 10:09 PM robinrohan has not yet responded
 Message 130 by berberry, posted 09-08-2005 10:14 PM robinrohan has not yet responded
 Message 131 by deerbreh, posted 09-08-2005 10:51 PM robinrohan has not yet responded
 Message 132 by nator, posted 09-09-2005 8:37 AM robinrohan has not yet responded

jar
Member
Posts: 30935
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 129 of 297 (241533)
09-08-2005 10:09 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by robinrohan
09-08-2005 10:04 PM


Re: Reality vs Belief based
Could we have a list of all the military bases that could be used for refugee housing?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by robinrohan, posted 09-08-2005 10:04 PM robinrohan has not yet responded

berberry
Inactive Member


Message 130 of 297 (241537)
09-08-2005 10:14 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by robinrohan
09-08-2005 10:04 PM


What can we do?
One thing we certainly can do is insist that important offices like the head of FEMA or the Homeland Security Secretary be held by qualified people rather than by idiots who just happen to have political connections. People talk about how the moral values of this country are going downhill, and now I think that at least on one level I can agree. To think that people were once appalled by the Teapot Dome scandal!

EDITED to change subtitle.

This message has been edited by berberry, 09-08-2005 09:16 PM


"I think younger workers first of all, younger workers have been promised benefits the government promises that have been promised, benefits that we can't keep. That's just the way it is." George W. Bush, May 4, 2005
This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by robinrohan, posted 09-08-2005 10:04 PM robinrohan has not yet responded

deerbreh
Member (Idle past 999 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 131 of 297 (241556)
09-08-2005 10:51 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by robinrohan
09-08-2005 10:04 PM


Re: Reality vs Belief based
There is a lot more that could have been done ahead of time. First of all, we could have had a viable evacuation plan that included getting out the people who can't drive out. China evacuated over 600,000 people a couple of weeks ago ahead of a typhoon. Most of them did not have private cars. It CAN be done. It is a matter or will and planning. What won't work and we knew it wouldn't work is to tell everyone to leave 24 hr ahead of the storm when there have been no "drills" ahead of time and no provision is made for people needing transport. Is it expensive? Sure, but it would have saved lives AND money in the long term.

Second, the dikes could have been reinforced and raised to cover a cat 5 hurricane. Again, we knew it was a possibility. No we can't remove the threat entirely but we could have prevented flooding this time if the recommendations of FEMA's own experts on the ground in NO had been followed.

On edit: By the way we have known at least since the 1920s that the events brought on by Katrina were a possibility and it was ranked by Homeland Security as one of the top three disasters that should be prepared for so it doesn't wash to holler "hindsight is 20/20."

This message has been edited by deerbreh, 09-08-2005 11:04 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by robinrohan, posted 09-08-2005 10:04 PM robinrohan has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by gene90, posted 09-14-2005 12:44 AM deerbreh has not yet responded

nator
Member (Idle past 276 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 132 of 297 (241730)
09-09-2005 8:37 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by robinrohan
09-08-2005 10:04 PM


Re: Reality vs Belief based
What about launching a public awareness program locally and of telling people to have a certain amount of water, canned food, batteries, flashlights and camping lamps, extra clothing stored in watertight storage, extra medications and medical supplies, etc.

What about hospitals having a priority list of wards to evacuate and military hospitals or other hospitals to transport each to?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by robinrohan, posted 09-08-2005 10:04 PM robinrohan has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by jar, posted 09-09-2005 11:41 AM nator has not yet responded
 Message 134 by deerbreh, posted 09-09-2005 11:48 AM nator has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30935
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 133 of 297 (241785)
09-09-2005 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by nator
09-09-2005 8:37 AM


Challenge to write FEMA's Plan
I bet that the members here can write the response plan for a major catastrophic incident and do so in less than 100 posts and less than a week. If that is possible, then what is the excuse for the Nation not having one in place?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by nator, posted 09-09-2005 8:37 AM nator has not yet responded

deerbreh
Member (Idle past 999 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 134 of 297 (241786)
09-09-2005 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by nator
09-09-2005 8:37 AM


Re: Reality vs Belief based
Yep. And if one was serious one would have a database containing the following information:
names and addresses of every household and # of people as well as every person:

In a wheelchair
Bedridden
On dialysis
On insulin
without transport
with surplus transport
with medical/first aid training

etc. much more but you get the idea.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by nator, posted 09-09-2005 8:37 AM nator has not yet responded

Trixie
Member (Idle past 1812 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 135 of 297 (241859)
09-09-2005 3:19 PM


Brown recalled to Washington
News on this side of the pond is that Brown is gone. Why am I not surprised?
Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by jar, posted 09-09-2005 3:22 PM Trixie has responded

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