General discussion of moderation procedures: The Consecution

If this was the begining and the end, I would agree with you whole heartedly.The problem is that Faith is a member of a group (Fundies). She may not be the best example, but she's what we've got here.That group (maybe Faith as well, maybe not - don't know) often strive to replace science with it's theories. Theories which, frankly, are dangerous. Be it "Katrina was sent by God to kill the homosexuals" or "prayer cures cancer" or "we need to kill all the Desert bastards because they don't believe in Jesus", leaving them to their own devices could be big trouble for the entire world.That's why we draw a line in the sand and fight.Are we winning. No. Impossible to win. They will never change their minds.But, that doesn't mean we should just give up and let them take over.

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But what does it matter? If Faith wants to use her time to try find find a theory that matches evidence to Biblical stories, why so many people get angry and yell? Let her do it! If she succeeds, great for her! If she does not, then you can all say "told you so."

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THe problem is that she DOESN'T succeed and resorts to double standards and dishonesty.She claims that she rejects standard geological explanatiosn because they don't make sense, but has no problems proposing "explanations" that are pure raving insanity.Contrary evidence must NOT be considered allegedly because it is "begging the question"Cosnidering other explanations for evidence is also ruled out on the same false grounds.IF her methods are so good then why does she need to rely on blatant double-standards and obvious lies to shut down any reasonable examination ?Faith can appear to be reasonable at times and that is a good reason to produce scientific evidence to refute her. If only to expose the fact that she ISN'T reasonable. But you have to recognise that she doesn;t stop at the point where her ideas are shown up as unreasonable - she keeps on going.T

This is a great discussion, but it probably belongs in the [forum=-11] forum. Please find an appropriate thread there or propose a new one, then post a link to it here.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

I cannot post to the Is It Science threads but Ben originally asked me to discuss this with him.

I've restored your privileges in [forum=-11].

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Thank you.

Concerning the thread that asks Have any Biblical Literalists been to the American Southwest:Without even making an issue of the abusiveness I had to endure on that thread by more than one poster, I do wonder how it serves EvC to have a thread on which I am energetically posting pulled out from under me and put into a science category where now it is languishing from lack of interest. It seems to be a form of suspending me without actually suspending me and the rudeness and unfairness are blatant.The thread was originally specifically placed in a non-science forum in order for Biblical literalists to respond to it. As Ben pointed out, it was the scientists, not I, who turned it into a science discussion. But then it was I, not the scientists, who can no longer post on it. And they have no interest in the subject without me to call names.Over and over what the scientists appear to object to most is the very thing a YEC does by definition, assume that they are wrong about an old earth, that the Bible is right, that the Flood actually happened. This is what a YEC assumes and tries to prove in any discussion of these things. It is ridiculous to allow this complaint from the scientists if you have any expectation of YECs posting here. The discussion must begin with the YEC assumptions or there is no discussion possible, at least on the non-science side of the board. I am called every name in the book for simply doing what a YEC does. This is absolutely absurd.This message has been edited by Faith, 09-10-2005 02:25 PM

It's not my understanding that EvC exists to allow YEC's a soapbox from which to promulgate their views; Percy has on many occasions specified that the purpose of this forum is to examine the claim of many creationists that their models can be supported and investigated scientifically.It's contradictory to that mission, therefore, to allow YEC's to promulgate their models and conclusions portected from scientific challenge; people who come here to post from a YEC perspective need to understand either that their participation implies a claim that creationism can withstand proper scientific inquiry, or that this isn't the forum for them.If the YEC position is not one that you feel can be supported scientifically without arbitrary assumptions of biblical inerrancy, then it's not clear to me why you choose to post here. Above all this is a forum where we examine creationist claims via science, not where Biblical literalists are allowed to promulgate their beliefs beyond challenge.To the extent that YEC's are welcome here, they're welcome only because they bring beliefs for us to examine. If an examination of their beliefs is not something they're going to allow, then I don't see why they should be welcomed. I'm not interested in discussing with you or with any other YEC if that discussion means that their arbitrary assumptions and the conclusions from them are set off-limits. And according to Percy's explicit mission for the forum, I don't understand why you believe such a person as yourself, who would set their model beyond scientific challenge, would be welcome here.

I agree with Faith on this. In my opinion, the thread should not have been moved.Perhaps the thread had run its course and could have simply been locked. Or perhaps it should have been left open a little longer if Faith wished to continue responding.

So good of you not to make an issue of the abusiveness you had to endure. Of course, just as good that you didn't make an issue of the abusiveness you dealt out.

If I am not welcome here, I will leave, but you will only encounter the same old same old with any YEC who shows up. If EvC doesn't mind sending them all away, that's up to EvC, but on the face of it EvC appears to want YECs to fit in here. IDers usually stick around a little longer because they are willing to let go of some Biblical premises that YECs aren't, but YECs are the quintessential opponents of evolutionism so it makes no sense to keep the place as unfriendly as it is to YECs. Any site that seriously expects to discuss these questions is going to have to make room for YEC assumptions.

You want to go toe-to-toe on that one? Post your links.

I was away for a while but intended to come back and answer the many posts to me that are still there unanswered. In my absence Nosy moved the thread.

For the record - My point is not that you didn't take abuse, but that you gave it.Here's some examples - Now, was I particularly offended by these? No. But, since this thread we are currently in started because you tried to get me banned for suggesting people stop trying to change your mind, I'm not about to simply walk away and let you pretend you're some sort of embattled Saint.When you sling mud and expect it slinged back.

It would be nice if this thread could stay on topic, that is, discussion of moderation. Can we skip the bickering.