Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 63 (9162 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 916,397 Year: 3,654/9,624 Month: 525/974 Week: 138/276 Day: 12/23 Hour: 1/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Crack-Pot Ideas that still hold water
Ben!
Member (Idle past 1419 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Hayward, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 6 of 54 (242187)
09-11-2005 2:00 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Nuggin
09-10-2005 10:54 PM


POP goes the weasel?
Yeah, I'll give it a try...
3) Random Species POP-ulation. New species randomly POP into existance. (usually with the audible sound). This accounts for why so many species that exist today don't exist in the past. It also allows for different species without macro-evolution.
Why don't we observe the popping now?
And what about conservation of energy? Is there any descriptive law you can derive from the POP events that describe how energy changes in the system (both locally and universally)?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Nuggin, posted 09-10-2005 10:54 PM Nuggin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Nuggin, posted 09-11-2005 2:15 AM Ben! has replied

  
Ben!
Member (Idle past 1419 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Hayward, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 7 of 54 (242189)
09-11-2005 2:07 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Nuggin
09-10-2005 10:54 PM


Divine Pusher
1) Downward Pusher - Gravity is not a law. What we "believe" is gravity "attracting two objects with mass" is simply the downward force exherted upon us by the Intelligent Pusher. It is through his devine providence that we don't go spinning out into space.
You're not saying "gravity is not a law." You're simply giving a mechanism to gravity. The same descriptive law (gravity, in the Newtonian formulation, is simply a descriptive law) holds.
Can we know anything more about the pusher? Why does the pusher push? Does the pusher ever get bored and not push? Why does the pusher choose to ignore objects that are far, far away? And why does the pusher vary the amount of pushing as 1/r^2? Wouldn't 1/r be an easier calculation? Is the pusher some kind of math wiz?
Also, how does the pusher do measurements of distance, to determine exactly how much to push? How long do these measurements and subsequent calculations take? Does that show up as a lag time in how the pusher adjusts his/her pushing after a change in distance between the two object occurs?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Nuggin, posted 09-10-2005 10:54 PM Nuggin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Nuggin, posted 09-11-2005 2:19 AM Ben! has replied

  
Ben!
Member (Idle past 1419 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Hayward, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 10 of 54 (242194)
09-11-2005 2:22 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Nuggin
09-11-2005 2:15 AM


Re: POP goes the weasel?
Yes, you're right. That is an assumption. In place of any observation, we have to make assumptions in order to make predictions. Good thing we have this new observation; it informs us that in fact things are NOT uniform over time. Good to know.
Is there any predictability to when these changes take place? Can I know when the popping will start again? Is there any determination behind it?
Also, when species go extinct, do they make a noise?
Finally, how can a food chain, and the interdependence between organisms work in this case? Was there an order of POPping such that animals lower on the food chain popped first? Seems it must have been; if you POP a lion with no meat to eat, the lion dies. Or was the lion a herbivore before?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Nuggin, posted 09-11-2005 2:15 AM Nuggin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Nuggin, posted 09-11-2005 2:47 AM Ben! has not replied

  
Ben!
Member (Idle past 1419 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Hayward, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 12 of 54 (242196)
09-11-2005 2:26 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Nuggin
09-11-2005 2:19 AM


Re: Divine Pusher
The pusher never "bores" but the pusher does choose to not push some types of balloons. Also, he pushes less hard on birds and clouds.
lol.
How does the pusher handle the atmosphere?
And if I'm not supposed to question the pusher, how will I get to know the pusher? What's prayer?
Is it possible to push the pusher? I like to push things that are annoying.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Nuggin, posted 09-11-2005 2:19 AM Nuggin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Nuggin, posted 09-11-2005 3:02 AM Ben! has not replied

  
Ben!
Member (Idle past 1419 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Hayward, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 13 of 54 (242200)
09-11-2005 2:45 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Nuggin
09-10-2005 10:54 PM


Enough tooling around...
I mean, it's fun, I'll probably play around some more.. for the same reason we all love puzzle games.
Nuggin,
What is the purpose of science?
It seems like you think the purpose of science is to find truth. But I completely disagree. Science cannot tell us about truth. It can only help us create models of the world we observe. Those models help us manipulate the world.
But the models themselves need not be truth. In fact, there's an infinite regress; you will never get an model or mechanism behind every part of another model. At some point you accept something as "irreducable", or you simply keep basing your mechanisms on a "yet to be known" mechanism.
In physics, I guess the "irreducable" would be atoms. Oh, no, wait, protons and neutrons. Crap. Quarks. No? Gluons? Strings?
And a "yet to be known mechanism" ... what is "randomness" in quantum theory? Or is that just taken as "irreducable"?
Science says nothing about truth. Occam's razor ABSOLUTELY has nothing to do with truth, and EVERYTHING to do with building models to predict and manipulate our world. When it comes to building modles and doing computations, keeping things simple with the least amount of assumptions serves us well. In the face of multiple competing theories, you want the computationally least involved one. You want the most easily extensible one. You want the one that has less mechanisms to change when your model inevitably breaks, because all models are fundamentally descriptions of what we have not yet observed, and new observations consistently do not fit within existing models. That's why the scientific method is so powerful--we can make progress in spite of all this.
But when it comes to truth... there's no way to determine which is the "best", or which is "right." The rules for choosing one "truth" over another are very different for those of choosing one model over another. Why do you think scientific models have anything to do with truth?
I'll give you an example. One truth says nothing about the question, WHY? For those who want an answer to this question, for those who are dissatisfied with having no answer, how is a "truth" with no answer better than a "truth" WITH an answer to this question?
Your argument rests fundamentally on saying that Occam's razor applies to finding "truth." That's a complete misuse of the principle. It's a practical principle about empirical theories. Occam's razor is not useful for that which is not empirical.
I'll stop here for now. I'm not pulling your chain Nuggin. I'm speaking seriously.
Ben

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Nuggin, posted 09-10-2005 10:54 PM Nuggin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Nuggin, posted 09-11-2005 2:56 AM Ben! has replied

  
Ben!
Member (Idle past 1419 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Hayward, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 19 of 54 (242209)
09-11-2005 3:03 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Nuggin
09-11-2005 2:56 AM


Re: Enough tooling around...
Fair enough.. but I'm going to post this post to you on another thread... or maybe open a new thread. And I demand a REAL answer then.
I'll get you a crackpot theory in the morning. It's gonna blow your mind pal. And rest assured, THIS man (starting at 33 seconds) is going to have a LARGE roll in MY theory man.
See? My theory ALREADY kicks ass--it requires Windows Media Player. And I'm just getting started...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Nuggin, posted 09-11-2005 2:56 AM Nuggin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Nuggin, posted 09-11-2005 11:07 AM Ben! has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024