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Author Topic:   YEC approaches to empirical investigation
jar
Member
Posts: 30984
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 6 of 303 (242453)
09-12-2005 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Faith
09-12-2005 10:38 AM


Oh, it's resolvable.
Let me give a forensic example.

There is a suicide note found and a dead body.

The question is to determine what happened.

The note says that the person killed himself by drowning but the body shows no water in the lungs.

Now, do you believe the note or do you believe the evidence of the body?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Faith, posted 09-12-2005 10:38 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Jazzns, posted 09-12-2005 10:50 AM jar has not yet responded
 Message 13 by Faith, posted 09-12-2005 10:55 AM jar has responded
 Message 20 by Ben!, posted 09-12-2005 11:02 AM jar has responded

jar
Member
Posts: 30984
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 14 of 303 (242464)
09-12-2005 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Faith
09-12-2005 10:50 AM


Believe it or not ...
everyone would welcome such an event.

Faith writes:

The only way the conflict about our premise could conceivably be resolved is if we are permitted to argue from it freely to show that we have good alternative explanations to evolutionist explanations of biology and OE explanations of geology.

The key point is to have good alternative explanations. If YECs could present any such explanations, then they would be listened to. But as hard as people have tried, and they really did try, the reality of the universe is such that every explanation so far has failed.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Faith, posted 09-12-2005 10:50 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 30984
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 17 of 303 (242468)
09-12-2005 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Faith
09-12-2005 10:55 AM


Re: Oh, it's resolvable.
No Faith. I offered no conclusion. I simply outlined the question.

If would like to put forth a conclusion and how the issue I outlined could be understood, please do so.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Faith, posted 09-12-2005 10:55 AM Faith has not yet responded

jar
Member
Posts: 30984
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 23 of 303 (242477)
09-12-2005 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Ben!
09-12-2005 11:02 AM


Re: Oh, it's resolvable.
Oh, I understand her position completely. And I am willing to give her every opportunity to support her position. see Message 14


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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 Message 20 by Ben!, posted 09-12-2005 11:02 AM Ben! has responded

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jar
Member
Posts: 30984
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 72 of 303 (242569)
09-12-2005 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Ben!
09-12-2005 1:07 PM


A direct question
Would an old earth proponent change his or her position if presented with incontrovertible evidence that the earth is young?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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 Message 70 by Ben!, posted 09-12-2005 1:07 PM Ben! has responded

Replies to this message:
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 Message 100 by Faith, posted 09-12-2005 3:31 PM jar has not yet responded

jar
Member
Posts: 30984
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 85 of 303 (242587)
09-12-2005 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Nuggin
09-12-2005 1:32 PM


And passing the question on to you.
See Message 72


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member
Posts: 30984
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 129 of 303 (242705)
09-12-2005 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Faith
09-12-2005 5:53 PM


Re: YECism can't get past the facts
And yes, I may very well give up on EvC altogether as a result, but first it needs to be clearly seen by the science side here exactly how they are stacking the deck against the very people they claim they want to debate with.

You cannot hold a debate with a red brick.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Faith, posted 09-12-2005 5:53 PM Faith has not yet responded

jar
Member
Posts: 30984
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 194 of 303 (243065)
09-13-2005 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by Faith
09-13-2005 5:23 PM


Okay, let's explore.
This site deerbreh posted also gives the OE interpretation that the Appalachians were formed by the collision of the continents, implying many driftings to and fro I guess (?), but the creationist explanation that occurs to me is that they formed in the initial breaking apart of the continents, no collision, and this would be because of the pushing-apart force at the continental ridge that separated them.

I've asked this of you before and just as with every other specific question you have simply never responded.

Perhaps this time it will be different.

Please explain the pulling apart mechanism that will produce what we see in the Appalachians.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by Faith, posted 09-13-2005 5:23 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 30984
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 198 of 303 (243089)
09-13-2005 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by Faith
09-13-2005 7:05 PM


Re: No Catch 22
SO sorry to say, but I've been warned AND suspended for stating my Biblical premises in NON-science forums.

Please provide evidence that is true.

And that thread about the Southwest was closed in my face for the same reason,...

Please provide evidence that was the reason.

You keep whining and crying about how you're mistreated. Now let's see if you can back them up.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by Faith, posted 09-13-2005 7:05 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 30984
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 201 of 303 (243096)
09-13-2005 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by Faith
09-13-2005 7:26 PM


So once again no support.
Faith, you have been specifically asked to support your allegation. Please do so or post that you were incorrect.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member
Posts: 30984
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 245 of 303 (244131)
09-16-2005 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 244 by Faith
09-16-2005 11:14 AM


OT re:earthquakes
There were two in that area in the last hour. Looks like a 3 and a 2 between Carson City and South Lake Tahoe.

AbE:

Magnitude 3.8 - local magnitude (ML)
Time Friday, September 16, 2005 at 8:09:44 AM (PDT)
Friday, September 16, 2005 at 15:09:44 (UTC)
Distance from Johnson Lane, NV - 15 km (9 miles) E (92 degrees)
Gardnerville, NV - 19 km (12 miles) ENE (57 degrees)
Minden, NV - 20 km (12 miles) ENE (64 degrees)
South Lake Tahoe, CA - 38 km (24 miles) ENE (72 degrees)
Sacramento, CA - 174 km (108 miles) ENE (72 degrees)
Coordinates 39 deg. 2.0 min. N (39.033N), 119 deg. 33.7 min. W (119.562W)
Depth 5 km (3.1 miles)
Location Quality unknown
Location Quality Parameters Nst= 62, Nph= 62, Dmin=0 km, Rmss=0 sec, Erho=0 km, Erzz=0 km, Gp=0 degrees
Event ID# nn00162500

Magnitude 2.6 - local magnitude (ML)
Time Friday, September 16, 2005 at 8:06:26 AM (PDT)
Friday, September 16, 2005 at 15:06:26 (UTC)
Distance from Dayton, NV - 14 km (9 miles) S (180 degrees)
Carson City, NV - 17 km (11 miles) ESE (104 degrees)
Johnson Lane, NV - 17 km (11 miles) NE (56 degrees)
South Lake Tahoe, CA - 42 km (26 miles) ENE (59 degrees)
Sacramento, CA - 177 km (110 miles) ENE (68 degrees)
Coordinates 39 deg. 7.5 min. N (39.125N), 119 deg. 33.8 min. W (119.563W)
Depth 0 km (0.0 miles)
Location Quality unknown
Location Quality Parameters Nst= 42, Nph= 42, Dmin=0 km, Rmss=0 sec, Erho=0 km, Erzz=0 km, Gp=0 degrees
Event ID# nn00162499

This message has been edited by jar, 09-16-2005 10:23 AM


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by Faith, posted 09-16-2005 11:14 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by Faith, posted 09-16-2005 11:23 AM jar has responded

jar
Member
Posts: 30984
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 247 of 303 (244134)
09-16-2005 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 246 by Faith
09-16-2005 11:23 AM


Re: OT re:earthquakes
Only when someone mentions them.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by Faith, posted 09-16-2005 11:23 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by Faith, posted 09-16-2005 11:28 AM jar has responded

jar
Member
Posts: 30984
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 249 of 303 (244138)
09-16-2005 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 248 by Faith
09-16-2005 11:28 AM


Re: OT re:earthquakes
Well there was just another little one slightly further west so it looks like a cluster with aftershocks.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by Faith, posted 09-16-2005 11:28 AM Faith has not yet responded

jar
Member
Posts: 30984
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 251 of 303 (259953)
11-15-2005 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by Faith
11-15-2005 12:59 PM


Re: Archaeology is a better model than forensics
My position on this thread and the previous one opened by IRH titled "Attention Faith..." was that for debate to be possible at all, the YEC premise that there WAS a worldwide Flood is not to be challenged on threads designated for the debate about the interpretation of the data.

False premises must always be challenged. Two plus two does NOT equal five.

AbE

I would like to expand on this because your message is the classic example or willfull ignorance.

You say "for debate to be possible at all, the YEC premise that there WAS a worldwide Flood is not to be challenged ".

I can not think of any statement that might show the total backruptcy of the YEC position. While there is absolutely no reason that you cannot try to use suppositions such as a flood as a basis of your discussion, to then say that it should not be challenged simply shows how weak that position is.

There is no position in science, no theory, no hypothesis or even piece of evidence that is not open to challenge. All must be questioned. All must be independantly replicated.

This is why the YEC position will NEVER be science, or even good theology. It can only be the weak rantings that will drive anyone capable of rational thought away from Christianity.

This message has been edited by jar, 11-15-2005 07:41 PM


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by Faith, posted 11-15-2005 12:59 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by Faith, posted 11-21-2005 10:19 AM jar has responded

jar
Member
Posts: 30984
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 255 of 303 (261880)
11-21-2005 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 253 by Faith
11-21-2005 10:19 AM


why the YEC postion is bankrupt.
You are free to try to support your assertion that a world-wide flood occured. But you must be able to support that. You must be able to show that not only does the idea of some great flood explain ALL of the evidence, you must show that it explains it better than the existing theories.

You don't have to believe God said it, and you may argue it on threads dedicated to that purpose, but to argue the scientific questions fairly with YECs who do believe God said it, you have to grant the assumption or there is no meaningful debate.

Utter nonsense.

Your basic premise must also stand up to being challenged. To say that it is somehow exempt from challenge is absurd. It is a sign of exactly how totally broken, irrational and quite frankly, insane the YEC position is.

As I'd been pointing out for some time to the usual deaf and biased ears, you simply insist that your premise prevail and that's stacking the deck.

Once again you misrepresent what others say. No one has insisted that there position is sacrosanct except the YECs. You are free to challenge any position held be any Evolutionist, and have even been encouraged to do so. The fact is that the YEC position has failed miserably and so is falling back on the idea that their imaginings must be accepted before discussion can take place.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by Faith, posted 11-21-2005 10:19 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by Faith, posted 11-21-2005 10:44 AM jar has responded

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