Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 63 (9162 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 916,352 Year: 3,609/9,624 Month: 480/974 Week: 93/276 Day: 21/23 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Why read the Bible literally: take two
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3476 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 194 of 306 (242310)
09-11-2005 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by Steve8
09-11-2005 2:04 PM


Re: Quite possible?
quote:
I guess the bottom line is, Jesus and the apostles (in particular Peter) believed that the Flood had occurred millennia after the fact. I guess I haven't found a better reason to view it as a non-historical event in the millennia since then.
How can you tell the difference between whether Jesus believed the flood was an actual happening or whether he was using an old Jewish story to make his point?

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by Steve8, posted 09-11-2005 2:04 PM Steve8 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by Steve8, posted 09-11-2005 6:49 PM purpledawn has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3476 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 200 of 306 (242329)
09-11-2005 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by Steve8
09-11-2005 6:49 PM


Re: Quite possible?
I was hoping you would answer my question seriously. You just gave me a lot of ifs. Does that mean you don't know how to tell the difference?
quote:
If Peter took it to be literally true
Did he actually take it as true?
2 Peter 2
4 For IF God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment:
5 IF he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven other;
6 IF he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;
7 and IF he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men ...
9 IF this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and ...
The author of 2 Peter also gave a lot of ifs.

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by Steve8, posted 09-11-2005 6:49 PM Steve8 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by nwr, posted 09-11-2005 7:32 PM purpledawn has replied
 Message 203 by Steve8, posted 09-11-2005 8:09 PM purpledawn has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3476 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 202 of 306 (242344)
09-11-2005 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by nwr
09-11-2005 7:32 PM


Re: Quite possible?
quote:
Aren't those "if"s being used as a rhetorical device, and not to express doubt?
Probably, I wasn't implying doubt. My point is that the writer or speaker doesn't really commit either way.
Since 2 Peter is considered a second century writing and not written by the apostle Peter, the writer was probably, IMO, a gentile. His knowledge of the Jewish use of the story would be questionable and he would not have been influenced by the human Jesus.
So the "ifs" are a good way to appear to be saying something "is" without really saying it "is".

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by nwr, posted 09-11-2005 7:32 PM nwr has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3476 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 205 of 306 (242364)
09-11-2005 10:18 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by Steve8
09-11-2005 8:09 PM


Re: Quite possible?
quote:
he describes the Flood as being God's judgment...
2 Peter 3 doesn't speak of the flood as judgment as you mentioned in Message 195.
2 Peter 3
3 First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires.
4 They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation."
5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water.
6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed.
7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
As I understand the history of Christianity, the grumblings about Christ's return were after the destruction of the 2nd temple. Peter was supposedly dead before that time. The book of 2 Peter is not considered to be written by the apostle Peter.
Rhetorical questions are asked only to produce an effect. The writer of 2 Peter makes no commitment as to whether he took the flood as an actual happening or was using a Jewish story to illustrate his point.
You still haven't really answered my question from Message 194 which concerned Jesus and not Peter.
How can you tell the difference between whether Jesus believed the flood was an actual happening or whether he was using an old Jewish story to illustrate his point?

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by Steve8, posted 09-11-2005 8:09 PM Steve8 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by Steve8, posted 09-12-2005 12:35 AM purpledawn has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3476 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 208 of 306 (242407)
09-12-2005 8:11 AM
Reply to: Message 206 by Steve8
09-12-2005 12:35 AM


Fact or Illustration
quote:
that fact is clearly stated in the epistle...if that fact is not true, it would not be in the Canon at all, as it would be a fraud.
No it would not be a fraud as we think of it today. It was just the way things were done back then.
quote:
If Noah didn't exist, if the Flood was just a story, then why think 'the coming of the son of man' will be any different?? Jesus warning would be empty indeed.
So you are unable to tell the difference. IMO he was illustrating his warning.
Matthew 24
38 For in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah boarded the ark. 39 They didn't know until the flood came and swept them all away. So this is the way the coming of the Son of Man will be:
So your determination that Jesus considered the flood to be an actual happening is based on the fact that you feel the warning is rendered useless if the comparison is not based on a real happening.
Does that mean you consider all the parables that Jesus used to illustrate the Kingdom of Heaven to be actual happenings?
Does the following have to be considered an actual happening for you to accept the warning?
Matthew 24
43 But know this: If the homeowner had known what time the thief was coming, he would have stayed alert and not let his house be broken into. 44 This is why you also should get ready, because the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
So your reason for reading the Bible literally is because you are unable to accept its teachings otherwise.
Please pay attention to what you are writing.
purpledawn writes:
How can you tell the difference between whether Jesus believed the flood was an actual happening or whether he was using an old Jewish story to make his point? Message 194
Steve8 writes:
If Peter took it to be literally true (he describes the Flood as being God's judgment...are you saying it was just a story??... Message 195
purpledawn writes:
The author of 2 Peter also gave a lot of ifs. Message 200
Steve8 writes:
I was actually referring to 2 Peter 3:3-7, which shows Peter is in no doubt... Message 203
purpledawn writes:
2 Peter 3 doesn't speak of the flood as judgment as you mentioned in Message 195. Message 205
Steve8 writes:
He did refer to God's judgment in 2 Peter 2, which was the passage you quoted that I was responding to.

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by Steve8, posted 09-12-2005 12:35 AM Steve8 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by Steve8, posted 09-14-2005 1:29 AM purpledawn has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3476 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 217 of 306 (242659)
09-12-2005 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by Steve8
09-12-2005 12:35 AM


Bump
Bump for response to Message 208.

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by Steve8, posted 09-12-2005 12:35 AM Steve8 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by Steve8, posted 09-12-2005 7:37 PM purpledawn has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3476 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 219 of 306 (242721)
09-12-2005 7:45 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by Steve8
09-12-2005 7:37 PM


Reason for Literal Reading
So I was right, your reason for reading the Bible literally is because you are unable to accept its teachings otherwise.

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by Steve8, posted 09-12-2005 7:37 PM Steve8 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by Steve8, posted 09-12-2005 9:21 PM purpledawn has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3476 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 222 of 306 (242872)
09-13-2005 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 221 by Steve8
09-12-2005 9:21 PM


Re: Reason for Literal Reading
But you don't know that they felt the same way because you can only read the Bible literally to maintain your faith.
And quite clearly by your lack of answers to my questions in Message 208 you are unable/unwilling to discuss possibilities to the contrary.
I assume that you don't take Matthew 7:3 literally.
Mt 7:3
"Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
From what I understand of your standpoint the Bible loses its authority if it cannot be taken literally and yet there are instances such as the verse above that cannot be taken literally.
What criteria do you use to discern which is literal and which is not?

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by Steve8, posted 09-12-2005 9:21 PM Steve8 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by Steve8, posted 09-13-2005 12:51 PM purpledawn has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3476 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 224 of 306 (243099)
09-13-2005 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by Steve8
09-13-2005 12:51 PM


Re: Reason for Literal Reading
quote:
My, my, you honestly think that I believe there are NO parables, figures of speech, metaphors and other things in the Bible that aren't meant to be taken literally. I use the same criteria to determine these things as anyone who has been taught in an English (or any language) class does. Sheesh, sorry but that's a straw man.
I don't know what a strawman is aside from a scarecrow and I know my questions in Message 208 have nothing to do with scarecrows.
quote:
Like most kinds of writing, there can be things that can be taken literally, and things that aren't.
At least I don't take the view that NOTHING can be taken literally...where on earth do you get that idea from??? Can I take it then, that you believe that nothing YOU or anyone else says can be taken literally???
What on earth are you talking about?
quote:
As per usual, you folks have one standard for the Bible and another for everything else...so let's not pretend this is about interpretation here, you folks have obviously got some heart issues.
I have no idea what "folks" you are talking about or are lumping me in with.
quote:
I use the same criteria to determine these things as anyone who has been taught in an English (or any language) class does.
So you don't read the Bible any more literally than any other book you read; but because of your faith you choose to read some parts as literal that others do not.
My original question in Message 194 was intended to understand how you discern what to take literally and what not to in those instances (such as Jesus talking about the flood) where opinion differs. I was sincerely trying to understand. I'm sorry you didn't feel inclined to answer kindly.
Good Day

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by Steve8, posted 09-13-2005 12:51 PM Steve8 has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3476 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 228 of 306 (243294)
09-14-2005 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 225 by Steve8
09-14-2005 1:29 AM


Re: Fact or Illustration
quote:
OK, Purp, sorry if I 'lumped' you in with everybody,
Now that you are "listening" to me and not lumping me in with everybody else, I'll try again.
When people say they read the Bible literally, I do find it hard to believe that they don't recognize parables, metaphors, humor, etc.; which you confirmed in Message 223.
Steve8 writes:
My, my, you honestly think that I believe there are NO parables, figures of speech, metaphors and other things in the Bible that aren't meant to be taken literally. I use the same criteria to determine these things as anyone who has been taught in an English (or any language) class does.
This comment
Steve8 writes:
I guess the bottom line is, Jesus and the apostles (in particular Peter) believed that the Flood had occurred millennia after the fact. I guess I haven't found a better reason to view it as a non-historical event in the millennia since then.
in Message 191 is what prompted my original question, which is what I want to address.
When reading the story of Noah and the flood, I read it on its own merits. While an area flood is quite probable, I don't find a planetary one that destroys all, plausible. The story has many mythical qualities. Only one man is good enough to save, animals turned evil, all animals on the boat, and extreme age to mention a few.
In any other book, I would not consider this an accurate historical rendition of an event. While an ancient area flood may have inspired this foundational myth, I would not consider it an event that happened as written.
In the way that you stated your comment, I take it to mean that you consider the flood to be an event that happened just as it was written. (If I am wrong I apologize.) Your reason for believing this is because of what two other authors wrote centuries later. IOW, because Jesus and Peter believed.
In studying the Jewish religion, I find that they don't necessarily hold to a literal meaning of the myths, but do use them as teaching aids or to make points. (I may have expressed this poorly, sorry if it is unclear)
So given that knowledge, I would consider Jesus using the flood as an illustration of how quickly the end days would happen, not an example of judgment.
Matthew 24:38 is not quoting from the OT.
For in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah boarded the ark.
It is a reasonable assumption, but not written.
So when reading a book by one author with possible historical events, what I read as actual or not is done on the book's own merit. I have read many books that present actual historical events within a fictional setting. If it makes difference in my life as to which parts are actual and which are fiction, then I have to check actual historical records to see which parts were actual events and which are part of the fictional story. I do the same with the Bible.
Is that what you do?

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by Steve8, posted 09-14-2005 1:29 AM Steve8 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by Steve8, posted 09-15-2005 12:45 AM purpledawn has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3476 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 237 of 306 (243918)
09-15-2005 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by Steve8
09-15-2005 12:45 AM


Re: Fact or Illustration
Maybe we can get back on track.
I don't know if I can communicate this clearly, so bear with me.
Do you see that you have moved from explaining how you use the same criteria for discerning if the event described in the Bible happened as written as you do for other works of literature to defending why the events could have happened as they were written in the Bible?
When you read any other work of literature and find parts that could be actual events, do you use the same tactic of "ifs" and "whys" to discern if the event actually happened as written?
Maybe we can try a neutral story.
Story of Bear Rock
Well, long, long ago, two young boys found themselves lost in the prairie. You know how it is. They had played ball and whacked it a few hundred yards out of the village. And then they had heard a small animal make a noise and had gone to investigate. They had come to a stream with many colorful pebbles and followed that for a while. They had come to a hill and wanted to see what was on the other side. On the other side they saw a herd of antelope and, of course, had to track them for a while. When they got hungry and thought it was time to go home, the two boys found that they didn't know where they were. They started off in the direction where they thought their village was, but only got farther and farther away from it. At last they curled up beneath a tree and went to sleep.
They got up the next morning and walked some more. They were still heading the wrong way. They ate some wild berries and dug up wild turnips, found some chokecherries, and drank water from streams.
For three days they walked toward the west. They were footsore, but they survived. Oh how they wished that their parents, or aunts and uncles, or elder brothers and sisters would find them. But nobody did.
On the fourth day the boys suddenly had a feeling that they were being followed. They looked around and in the distance saw the bear. This was no ordinary bear, but a giant grizzly so huge that the boys would make only a small mouthful for him, but he had smelled the boys and wanted that mouthful. He kept coming close, and the earth trembled as he gathered speed.
The boys started running, looking for a place to hide, but here was no such place and the grizzly was much, much faster than they. They stumbled, and the bear was almost upon them. They could see his red, wide-open jaws full of enormous, wicked teeth. They could smell his hot evil breath.
The boys were old enough to have learned to pray, and they called upon the Creator: "Grandfather, have pity, save us."
All at once the earth shook and began to rise. The boys rose with it. Out of the earth came a cone of rock going up, up up until it more than a thousand feet high. And the boys were on top of it.
The bear was disappointed to see his meal disappearing into the clouds.
Have I said he was a giant bear? This grizzly was so huge that he could almost reach to the top of the rock when he stood on his hind legs. Almost, but not quite. His claws were as large as a tipi's lodge pole. Frantically the bear dug his claws into the side of the rock, trying to get up, trying to get those boys. As he did so, he made big scratches in the sides of the towering rock. He tried every spot, every side. He scratched up the rock all around, but it was no use. They boys watched him wearing himself out, getting tired, giving up. They finally saw him going away, a huge, growling, grunting mountain of fur disappearing over the horizon.
The boys were saved. Or were they? How were they to get down? They were humans, not birds who could fly.
Some ten years ago, mountain climbers tried to conquer Devil's Tower. They had ropes, and iron hooks called pitons to nail themselves to the rock face, and the managed to get up. But they couldn't get down. They were marooned on that giant basalt cone, and had to be taken off in a helicopter.
In the long-ago days the Indians had no helicopters. So how did the two boys get down? The legend does not tell us, but we can be sure that the Great Spirit didn't save those boys only to let them perish of hunger and thirst on the top of the rock.
Well, the eagle has always been a friend to our people. So it must have been the eagle that let the boys grab hold of him and carried them safely back to their village.
So when you read the story above, do you accept that the event happened as written?
If not, what within the story causes you not to accept the story as an actual event that happened as written?

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by Steve8, posted 09-15-2005 12:45 AM Steve8 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by Steve8, posted 09-18-2005 2:13 PM purpledawn has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3476 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 244 of 306 (244666)
09-18-2005 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by Steve8
09-18-2005 2:13 PM


Re: Fact or Illustration
quote:
I think one of the problems with this story is, it stands alone, without any real historical context, making it hard to take seriously (giant bear aside lol) unlike the Biblical stories we have been talking about here.
I need you to define what you mean by historical context and also describe the historical context you take into account for the story of Noah and the Flood which determines that the story is to be taken as written. (Only Noah and the Flood)
quote:
If I read correctly, this story suggests a bear of almost a 1000 feet high while standing...which would be fine, except, I haven't heard of any fossilised bears that big lol!
Yet!
You can abide a 950 year old man, but not a Grizzly a thousand feet tall?

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by Steve8, posted 09-18-2005 2:13 PM Steve8 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by Steve8, posted 09-20-2005 12:37 PM purpledawn has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3476 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 248 of 306 (245191)
09-20-2005 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by Steve8
09-20-2005 12:37 PM


Re: Fact or Illustration
You derailed again and didn't address the main part of Message 244.
purpledawn writes:
I need you to define what you mean by historical context and also describe the historical context you take into account for the story of Noah and the Flood which determines that the story is to be taken as written. (Only Noah and the Flood)
quote:
Bottom line is, if you don't accept those two Biblical presuppositions,
Which I assume is:
Steve8 writes:
The Bible does not pretend that everything before Adam & Eve's sin and before the Flood was the same as it is now.
In Message 223 you stated:
My, my, you honestly think that I believe there are NO parables, figures of speech, metaphors and other things in the Bible that aren't meant to be taken literally. I use the same criteria to determine these things as anyone who has been taught in an English (or any language) class does. ...
Like most kinds of writing, there can be things that can be taken literally, and things that aren't.
I want you to help me understand your criteria for determining that the story of Noah and the flood is to be read literally as an event that happened as written. Help me to see that you use that same criteria in reading other writings, such as the one I provided, as you do the stories in the Bible.
quote:
Bottom line is, if you don't accept those two Biblical presuppositions, you are going to have a hard time with lots of other stuff in the Bible too.
This statement sounds as though you use a different set of criteria for other writings than you do the Bible.
If I take your presupposition that everything was different before the flood, then the 1000 foot bear is a possibility since the Grizzly Bear Lodge (Devil's Tower) is over 5000 years old.

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by Steve8, posted 09-20-2005 12:37 PM Steve8 has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3476 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 249 of 306 (245295)
09-20-2005 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by Steve8
09-20-2005 12:25 PM


Author and Teller
quote:
Like I said, the author of the story obviously didn't take it that seriously...why should we?? I'm amazed you can't tell the difference.
Since the author did not create this story, why does his opinion count?

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by Steve8, posted 09-20-2005 12:25 PM Steve8 has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3476 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 250 of 306 (246781)
09-27-2005 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by Steve8
09-20-2005 12:37 PM


Bump for Criteria Clarification
Still waiting for an answer to Message 246.

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by Steve8, posted 09-20-2005 12:37 PM Steve8 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by Steve8, posted 09-28-2005 9:25 PM purpledawn has replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024