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Author Topic:   The egg came first
MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 4695 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 46 of 111 (243192)
09-14-2005 12:24 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by igor_the_hero
09-13-2005 7:08 PM


You're making it up as you go along aren't you?
Unnerved means the parents are not sure what they have and the may kill it. How would you feel knowing you gave birth to something new? Your instincts would tell you to destroy it.

Do you not have the phrase 'a face only a mother could love' in the States?

Or to put it in more real world terms - there is a bird in the Old World called the cuckoo which lays their eggs in the nests of birds of other species. When the cuckoo chick (which looks nothing like the young of the species that owns the nest) hatches it is fed by the 'adoptive' parents - even after it has thrown all the natural chicks out of the nest.

So based on an actual example from the natural world your claim about the parents being unnerved and killing it is on very shaky ground.


I wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8868
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003
Member Rating: 7.2


Message 47 of 111 (243210)
09-14-2005 1:46 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by igor_the_hero
09-13-2005 7:08 PM


You need to read a simple text on TOE
How would you feel knowing you gave birth to something new?

With very few exceptions (and I think non in the animals) there is no time when an animal will give birth to something that isn't the same species as it is.

This is just one example of how very,very little you know about evolution. I suggest that you stop now and read a very simple introductory text or spend a lot of time browsing this site and others give in links here.

You also say my knowledge is flawed, which may be true, but all evolution is flawed.

You can not say one way or the other is evolution is flawed if you knowledge of it is flawed. Believe me, you knowledge is very very flawed. In fact it is about as bad as anyone else who has ever dropped in here -- and boy! is that saying something.

Each sentence you have is totally off base since it is from an idea of evolution that is utterly WRONG. What you are arguing against isn't something which exists. It is, possible, some nonsense you have read from a creationist site that knows NOTHING of the topic.

This message has been edited by NosyNed, 09-14-2005 01:47 AM


This message is a reply to:
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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 111 (243255)
09-14-2005 7:54 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by igor_the_hero
09-13-2005 10:45 PM


Re: Evolution 101
Ah! You did not refer to the plesiousaur.

You did not say where in the Bible you think it refers to any plesiosaurs.

If you have actually read the Bible through you will see that it does descrirbe a brachiosaur.

No, it doesn't. Behemoth is not a brachiosaur.

quote:
15 "Behold, Be'hemoth, which I made as I made you; he eats grass like an ox. 16 Behold, his strength in his loins, and his power in the muscles of his belly. 17 He makes his tail stiff like a cedar; the sinews of his thighs are knit together. 18 His bones are tubes of bronze, his limbs like bars of iron. 19 "He is the first of the works of God; let him who made him bring near his sword! 20 For the mountains yield food for him where all the wild beasts play. 21 Under the lotus plants he lies, in the covert of the reeds and in the marsh. 22 For his shade the lotus trees cover him; the willows of the brook surround him. 23

"Lotus trees" are a kind of fruit-bearing bush, like an orange tree or apple tree. They are not very large. Brachiosaurus stood over 50ft tall. It would have been unable to lay under a lotus, or hide in the reeds or in a marsh.

Elephants, on the other hand, while large, are still the right size to be able to do all those things.

Yes they did excavate the rock.

What rock? The Paluxy rocks? Yeah, they excavated them, and determined that the human footprints had been carved in. They found tool marks and everything. The Paluxy tracks are forgeries.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by igor_the_hero, posted 09-13-2005 10:45 PM igor_the_hero has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by igor_the_hero, posted 09-14-2005 4:12 PM crashfrog has responded

  
Wounded King
Member (Idle past 2436 days)
Posts: 4149
From: Edinburgh, Scotland
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 49 of 111 (243308)
09-14-2005 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by igor_the_hero
09-13-2005 10:54 PM


Re: Evolution 101
As for knowing the theory, I have researched it. From all points of few. I have read Scientific Creationism and Origin Of The Species.

That right there suggest some fundamental misunderstandings about evolution. Reading Scientific Creationism and Origin Of The Species, perhaps you meant 'On the Origin of Species..., doesn't sound like research from all points of view.

Simply claiming familiarity with evolutionary theory is less than convincing, people might be more inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt if your questions suggested that you actually had some familiarity with the theories involved, sadly most of them seem to be oft regurgitated creationist strawmen.

As far as the question of recognising offspring and parents goes I think that the cuckoo example and the experiments of Konrad Lorenz, in which he imprinted ducklings and goslings to himself, go to show that your claims for some highly accurate instinctive recognition of the like and unlike are not well supported in this instance.

TTFN,

WK


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igor_the_hero
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 111 (243381)
09-14-2005 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by crashfrog
09-14-2005 7:54 AM


Re: Evolution 101
That is clearly a Brachiosaur. "He makes his tail stiff like a cedar." An elephant tail is loose while a brachiosaur tail is straight. "Under the lotus plant he lies, in the covert of the reeds and in the marsh." Brachiosaur spent most its time in the water so that it would not have to support its weight. It is believed brachiosaur only had a long neck as counter-balance for its tail. They excavated the rocks and found others underneath it in the strata proving these could not be faked. If they could be forged that way then how can we trust that layers of rock can be used to tell how long they are from?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by crashfrog, posted 09-14-2005 7:54 AM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
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CK
Member (Idle past 2469 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 51 of 111 (243387)
09-14-2005 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by igor_the_hero
09-14-2005 4:12 PM


Re: Evolution 101
This one comes up now and again and someone else will explain this translation - but "he makes his tail* stiff like a cedar" refers to the Penis of the creature.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by igor_the_hero, posted 09-14-2005 4:12 PM igor_the_hero has responded

Replies to this message:
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igor_the_hero
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 111 (243399)
09-14-2005 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by CK
09-14-2005 4:19 PM


Re: Evolution 101
Seeing as how this man owned plenty of livestock, I fail to see how he could mistake a tail for a penis. Also if this "creature" was seen in the water under the lotus trees then he would be seen submerged or partly submerged. The verse about the leviathan is found in Job chapter 40.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by CK, posted 09-14-2005 4:47 PM igor_the_hero has responded

  
CK
Member (Idle past 2469 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 53 of 111 (243402)
09-14-2005 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by igor_the_hero
09-14-2005 4:39 PM


Re: Evolution 101
quote:
He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.

What are "his stones" what does that refer to ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by igor_the_hero, posted 09-14-2005 4:39 PM igor_the_hero has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by igor_the_hero, posted 09-14-2005 4:51 PM CK has responded

  
igor_the_hero
Inactive Member


Message 54 of 111 (243405)
09-14-2005 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by CK
09-14-2005 4:47 PM


Re: Evolution 101
His stones refer to his knee caps. Also, since "He moveth his tail like a cedar" then it would have to be speaking of his tail. A cedar is a very large tree. This was a godly man who was modest. He would not be complimenting the animal upon its penis size.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by CK, posted 09-14-2005 4:47 PM CK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by CK, posted 09-14-2005 4:55 PM igor_the_hero has responded

  
CK
Member (Idle past 2469 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 55 of 111 (243410)
09-14-2005 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by igor_the_hero
09-14-2005 4:51 PM


Re: Evolution 101
let's get this straight:

quote:
Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly. He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his KNEECAPS are wrapped together.

This is a wind-up, no?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by igor_the_hero, posted 09-14-2005 4:51 PM igor_the_hero has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by igor_the_hero, posted 09-14-2005 5:03 PM CK has responded

  
igor_the_hero
Inactive Member


Message 56 of 111 (243414)
09-14-2005 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by CK
09-14-2005 4:55 PM


Re: Evolution 101
As this is getting far off topic, I am posting a new one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by CK, posted 09-14-2005 4:55 PM CK has responded

Replies to this message:
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CK
Member (Idle past 2469 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 57 of 111 (243419)
09-14-2005 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by igor_the_hero
09-14-2005 5:03 PM


Re: Evolution 101
I look forward to it.

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Wounded King
Member (Idle past 2436 days)
Posts: 4149
From: Edinburgh, Scotland
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 58 of 111 (243452)
09-14-2005 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by igor_the_hero
09-14-2005 5:03 PM


Re: Evolution 101
There is already a thread on pretty much this question at this page. The only difference is that this is partly framed in terms of cryptozoology. They are discussing exactly the same passages from Job.

TTFN,

WK


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bkelly
Inactive Member


Message 59 of 111 (243461)
09-14-2005 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by igor_the_hero
09-13-2005 6:32 PM


quote:
You assume that this egg could in fact survive.

Of course, that is what evolution is all about.

quote:
You have no idea what it came from.

Of course I do, it came from something that was similiar to but was not a chicken.

quote:
Its parent could be unnerved by this strange thing.

So what, let it be unnerved. But probably not. Chickens are not known for their overwhelming intelligence. If the chicken laid the egg and it hatched, the chicken will raise it. There are numerous examples of birds laying their egges in the nest of other species and having them raised.

quote:
Of course if this thing lays eggs then this egg will greatly differ from the others of its kind.

Maybe, maybe not, again, it doesn't matter. See above.

quote:
It might also take longer to hatch than other of this creature's eggs. Predators may damage the egg.

So what? It doesn't matter. it only takes one success to be sucessful. The number of failures is not relevant. How many chances can there be in millions of years. That is not figuratively speaking millions of years, that is one year (365 days) millions of times.

quote:
The parents would have to incubate it correctly on their first try.

Not a problem. How many eggs are incubated correctly on the first try? Maybe ask, how many eggs are incubated correctly on the second or third try. In the second sense, the question is not valid.

quote:
You see it is far more plausible for the creationist's "The chicken came first." That is one of the main problems with evolution. It assumes that everything has the knowledge it needs and that their is no trial and error process.

Not at all. Evolution does not assume any knowledge. Indeed, it disregards knowledge and need. It just happens, randomly. If the new trait is good, or does not cause immediate harm, it may survive and alter the species.

The egg came first.


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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 60 of 111 (243466)
09-14-2005 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by igor_the_hero
09-14-2005 4:12 PM


That is clearly a Brachiosaur.

Too small to be a brachiosaur, as I've proven - also, brachiosaurs had been dead for over 65 million years by the time the Bible was being written.

"He makes his tail stiff like a cedar."

That's a euphemism for "penis". You'll probably understand when you're older.

Brachiosaur spent most its time in the water so that it would not have to support its weight.

This is a common myth. Brachiosaurus did not enter the water; had it submerged itself to the neck, the water pressure would have crushed its chest. It would have been quite unable to breathe underwater.

Elephants, on the other hand, are well-known to engage in snorkeling behavior; it is this behavior to which the Bible refers to when it says that the Be'hemoth need not fear the rushing Jordan, or whatever.

They excavated the rocks and found others underneath it in the strata proving these could not be faked.

Which rocks? I'm still not clear. Are you talking about the Paluxy tracks? Fakes. Admitted by the fakers, as I recall.


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