Department Of Homeland Security Inaction At the Top

Now, more blame to pass around:

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Saturday, September 3, 2005

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IN KATRINA'S WAKE
Clinton, Bush slashed spending on levees
For 10 years, preventive maintenance was cut

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Posted: September 3, 2005
1:00 a.m. Eastern

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© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com
WASHINGTON - While the Bush administration is sure to get most of the heat for cuts in proposed expenditures to maintain and upgrade New Orleans flood control system, the Clinton administration repeatedly cut congressional allocations for the projects and the recommendations on spending by the Army Corps of Engineers.

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Most of the attention to date has focused on the fact that last year the Army Corps of Engineers sought $105 million for hurricane and flood programs in New Orleans, while the White House slashed the request to about $40 million. Congress finally approved $42.2 million, less than half of the agency's request.

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Some have been quick to point out the same Congress and Bush administration agreed to a $286.4 billion pork-laden highway bill that included more than 6,000 pet projects for lawmakers, as well as allocations for dust control on Arkansas roads, a warehouse on the Erie Canal and a $231 million bridge to a small, uninhabited Alaskan island.

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However, 10 years ago, the Clinton administration cut 98 flood control projects, including one in New Orleans, saying such efforts should be local projects, not national.

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Army Corps of Engineers officials freely conceded in 1995 the cuts might be penny-wise and pound-foolish. But they said they were forced to eliminate some services the corps has historically provided to taxpayers to meet the administration's budget-cutting goals.

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A $120 million hurricane project, approved and financed annually from 1965 was killed by the Clinton administration after being approved by the Army Corps of Engineers. It was designed to protect more than 140,000 West Bank residents east of the Harvey Canal.

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On June 9, John Zirschky, the acting assistant secretary of the Army and the official who refused to forward the report to Congress, sent a memo to the corps, saying the recommendation for the project "is not consistent with the policies and budget priorities reflected in the President's Fiscal Year 1996 budget. Accordingly, I will not forward the report to the Office of Management and Budget for clearance."

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The following year, Congress approved more for flood-control projects than was recommended by the Clinton administration. Likewise, in 1999, Congress and the Clinton administration agreed to spend only $47 million on New Orleans area hurricane flood control projects - half of what local officials had requested.

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Again, in 2000, Congress approved a $23.6 billion measure for water and energy programs, with sizable increases for several New Orleans area flood-control projects.

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Clinton, however, promised to veto the annual appropriation for the Energy Department and Army Corps of Engineers, not because it was $890 million larger than he proposed, but because it did not include a plan to alter the levels of the Missouri River to protect endangered fish and birds.

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The quote said that event happened 'a couple of weeks ago', not that China evacuated in a couple of weeks. Typhoon

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More info

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Duly noted. Thank you.It's interesting how amazingly efficient China and Cuba are at moving people out of the way. I suspect that the phrase "mandatory evacuation" might mean something different in those nations than it does in the US. Here, all a "mandatory evacuation" means is that you might have to sign a waiver that says you won't sue and that if you get hurt no police or paramedics will be dispatched until conditions improve. There are no secret police tasked with removing people from their homes. And there are lots of people that apparently think it's just fine to live in a flooded city, last I heard there were people in New Orleans refusing to leave.This message has been edited by gene90, 09-14-2005 01:30 AM

And there's one more lobby that needs a look: environmentalists.

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FACT: While politicians talk, SOWL sues! SOWL has been involved in countless lawsuits involving Lake Ponchartrain on every subject....from the New Orleans Levee Board Airport Expansion Plan, Bucktown Marina Expansion Plan, New Orleans Mosquito Control Drainage schemes in wetlands of New Orleans East, Eden Isle Subdivision on the north shores of Lake Ponchartrain, Orlanda Subdivision, Corps of Engineers Hurricane Barrier Project, shell dredging in Lake Ponchartrain, Waterford Nuclear Plant...to the Marathon Oil Company canals in the wetlands of St. Charles and St. John the Baptist parishes.

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ForbiddenAnybody else want to politically exploit this human tragedy? There's enough of it to go around.This message has been edited by gene90, 09-14-2005 01:14 AM

-Post Deleted-This message has been edited by gene90, 09-14-2005 01:39 AM

gene90 says:"FEMA is not responsible for everything that goes on in a disaster area. Their purpose is not to take over, but to assist local authorities. They cannot be legally deployed until formally requested by a governor."President Bush says:"The President's action authorizes the Department of Homeland Security, Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), to coordinate all disaster relief efforts which have the purpose of alleviating the hardship and suffering caused by the emergency on the local population, and to provide appropriate assistance for required emergency measures, authorized under Title V of the Stafford Act, to save lives, protect property and public health and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat of a catastrophe in the parishes of"Briefing Room - The White HouseOh by the way if you read the link, he doesn't even include the effected parishes. How do you explan that, if you please.And the reason President Bush made the above statement was in response to this.Blanco asks for federal help 2 day before landfall"Pursuant to 44 CFR 206.35, I have determined that this incident is of such severity and magnitude that effective response is beyond the capabilities of the State and affected local governments, and that supplementary Federal assistance is necessary to save lives, protect property, public health, and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat of a disaster. I am specifically requesting emergency protective measures, direct Federal Assistance, Individual and Household Program (IHP) assistance, Special Needs Program assistance, and debris removal."404So who dropped the ball?

Look, President Bush has already said that the he was taking the blame for failures at the federal level. So the only thing now is to establish a timeline that shows when the feds should have gotten involved. I still think, from what I've read, that Blanco asked for federal help on Saturday 8/27/05. Read it in the link I provide in the post above. So is that the date, or does anyone see it as Friday 9/2/05, when the feds really got involved.

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President Bush says:

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No, that's a press release from his office.

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"The President's action authorizes the Department of Homeland Security, Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), to coordinate all disaster relief efforts which have the purpose of alleviating the hardship and suffering caused by the emergency on the local population, and to provide appropriate assistance for required emergency measures, authorized under Title V of the Stafford Act, to save lives, protect property and public health and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat of a catastrophe in the parishes of"

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FEDERAL EMERGENCY ASSISTANCE

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Sec. 502. (a) Specified. In any emergency, the President may -

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(1) direct any Federal agency, with or without reimbursement, to utilize its authorities and the resources granted to it under Federal law (including personnel, equipment, supplies, facilities, and managerial, technical and advisory services) in support of State and local emergency assistance efforts to save lives, protect property and public health and safety, and lessen or avert the threat of a catastrophe;
(2) coordinate all disaster relief assistance (including voluntary assistance) provided by Federal agencies, private organizations, and State and local governments;
(3) provide technical and advisory assistance to affected State and local governments for -

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(A) the performance of essential community services;
(B) issuance of warning of risks or hazards;
(C) public health and safety information, including dissemination of such information;
(D) provision of health and safety measures; and
(E) management, control, and reduction of immediate threats to public health and safety;

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(4) provide emergency assistance through Federal agencies;
(5) remove debris in accordance with the terms and conditions of section 407;
(6) provide temporary housing assistance in accordance with section 408; and
(7) assist State and local governments in the distribution of medicine, food, and other consumable supplies, and emergency assistance.

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(b) General. Whenever the Federal assistance provided under subsection (a) with respect to an emergency is inadequate, the President may also provide assistance with respect to efforts to save lives, protect property and public health and safety, and lessen or avert the threat of a catastrophe.

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I would say that's what you saw when cable news was showing continuous footage of helicopter rescues. How many thousands did they pull from rooftops?

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Oh by the way if you read the link, he doesn't even include the effected parishes. How do you explan that, if you please.

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What do you mean?

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or to lessen or avert the threat of a catastrophe in the parishes of Allen, Avoyelles, Beauregard, Bienville, Bossier, Caddo, Caldwell, Claiborne, Catahoula, Concordia, De Soto, East Baton Rouge, East Carroll, East Feliciana, Evangeline, Franklin, Grant, Jackson, LaSalle, Lincoln, Livingston, Madison, Morehouse, Natchitoches, Pointe Coupee, Ouachita, Rapides, Red River, Richland, Sabine, St. Helena, St. Landry, Tensas, Union, Vernon, Webster, West Carroll, West Feliciana, and Winn.

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Seeing as how a Federal declaration of disaster is little more than clearance for Federal aid to enter an area, I wouldn't have declared Orleans and Jefferson a disaster until the storm had passed. That would have aggravated the situation and placed personnel at risk.Try this Aug 29:

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Designated Counties for Louisiana Hurricane Katrina

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Disaster Summary For FEMA-1603-DR, Louisiana

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Declaration Date: August 29 2005

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Incident Type: Hurricane Katrina

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Incident Period: August 29, 2005, and Continuing

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Individual Assistance
(Assistance to individuals and households):

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The parishes of Acadia, Ascension, Assumption, Calcasieu, Cameron, East Baton Rouge, East Feliciana, Iberia, Iberville, Jefferson, Jefferson Davis, Lafayette, Lafourche, Livingston, Orleans, Pointe Coupee, Plaquemines, St. Bernard, St. Charles, St. Helena, St. James, St. John, St. Mary, St. Martin, St. Tammany, Tangipahoa, Terrebonne, Vermilion, Washington, West Baton Rouge, and West Feliciana.

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Public Assistance
(Assistance to State and local governments and certain private nonprofit organizations for the repair or replacement of disaster-damaged facilities):

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The parishes of Ascension, Assumption, East Baton Rouge, Iberia, Iberville, Jefferson, Lafourche, Livingston, Orleans, Plaquemines, St. Bernard, St. Charles, St. Helena, St. James, St. John, St. Martin, St. Mary, St. Tammany, Tangipahoa, Terrebonne, Washington, and West Baton Rouge for Public Assistance [Categories C-G].

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The parishes of Acadia, Ascension, Assumption, Calcasieu, Cameron, East Baton Rouge, East Feliciana, Iberia, Iberville, Jefferson, Jefferson Davis, Lafayette, Lafourche, Livingston, Orleans, Pointe Coupee, Plaquemines, St. Bernard, St. Charles, St. Helena, St. James, St. John, St. Mary, St. Martin, St. Tammany, Tangipahoa, Terrebonne, Vermilion, Washington, West Baton Rouge, and West Feliciana for debris removal and emergency protective measures, including direct Federal assistance. For a period of up to 72 hours, assistance for emergency protective measures, including direct Federal assistance, will be provided at 100 percent of the total eligible costs. The period of up to 72 hours at 100 percent excludes debris removal.

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The parishes of Allen, Avoyelles, Beauregard, Bienville, Bossier, Caddo, Caldwell, Catahoula, Claiborne, Concordia, Desoto, East Carroll, Evangeline, Franklin, Grant, Jackson, LaSalle, Lincoln, Madison, Morehouse, Natchitoches, Ouachita, Rapides, Red River, Richland, Sabine, St. Landry, Tensas, Union, Vernon, Webster, West Carroll, and Winn for emergency protective measures, including direct Federal assistance, will be provided at 100 percent of the total eligible costs.

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Consistent with the requirement that Federal assistance be supplemental, any Federal funds provided under the Stafford Act for Public Assistance will be limited to 75 percent of the total eligible costs.

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Federal funds for debris removal and emergency protective measures (Categories A and B), including direct Federal assistance, under the Public Assistance program at 100 percent of total eligible costs, for a 60-day period retroactive to the date of the major disaster declaration.

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Hazard Mitigation Grant Program
(Assistance to State and local governments and certain private nonprofit organizations for actions taken to prevent or reduce long term risk to life and property from natural hazards):

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St. Mary, St. Tammany and Ouachita Parishes in the State of Louisiana are eligible to apply for assistance under the Hazard Mitigation Grant Program.

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FEMA.gov | Federal Emergency Management Agency - FEMA.gov is experiencing technical difficultiesI believe 29 August is the date of landfall, so it isn't as if Bush is holding back relief. Even if you had solid traction on this point, and I don't think you do, it wouldn't have made a difference.

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Blanco asks for federal help 2 day before landfall

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"Pursuant to 44 CFR 206.35, I have determined that this incident is of such severity and magnitude that effective response is beyond the capabilities of the State and affected local governments, and that supplementary Federal assistance is necessary to save lives, protect property, public health, and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat of a disaster. I am specifically requesting emergency protective measures, direct Federal Assistance, Individual and Household Program (IHP) assistance, Special Needs Program assistance, and debris removal."

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404

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Did you not read the entire letter?

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ENCLOSURE A TO EMERGENCY REQUEST

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Estimated requirements for other Federal agency programs:
” Department of Social Services (DSS): Opening (3) Special Need Shelters (SNS) and establishing (3) on Standby. Costs estimated at $500,000 per week for each in operation.
” Department of Health and Hospitals (DHH): Opening (3) Shelters and establishing (3) on Standby. Costs estimated at $500,000 per week for each in operation.
” Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness (OHSEP): Providing generators and support staff for SNS and Public Shelters. Costs estimated to range from $250,000-$500,000 to support (6) Shelter generator operations.
” Louisiana State Police (LSP): Costs to support evacuations - $300,000 for a non-direct landfall.
” Louisiana Department of Wildlife and Fisheries (WLF): Costs to support evacuations - $200,000 for a non-direct landfall.
” Louisiana Department of Transportation and Development (DOTD): Costs to support evacuations - $2,000,000 for a non-direct landfall.

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Totals: $ 9,000,000

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Estimated Requirements for assistance under the Stafford Act:

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Coordination: $0
Technical and advisory assistance: $0
Debris removal: $0
Emergency protective measures: $ 9,000,000
Individuals and Households Program (IHP): $0
Distribution of emergency supplies: $0
Other (specify): $0

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Totals: $ 9,000,000
Grand Total: $ 9,000,000

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That's the total that Blanco is asking for. $9 million dollars. Now, we've dumped billions into that city. I thought I heard the total relief effort was costing us about $200 million/day for a while there. N.O.'s percentage of that figure won't be small.I also note that nowhere in that letter is there a request for troops (because such a thing would be legally questionable). And that's basically what the controversey boils down to: there was nobody to enforce civil order in the city for a few days. That's also Blanco's fault because only the governor can send in the National Guard. By the way, the teeming thousands in the Superdome? Nagin's fault. And now they're saying that the structure may have to be torn down. Well, that's comforting. Seeing as how when he put those people in there to begin with he was expecting a direct hit from a Category 5 hurricane.One thing I think you forgot to mention was that it was Bush that called Nagin prior to landfall and strongly encouraged him to issue a mandatory evacuation.This message has been edited by gene90, 09-14-2005 11:36 AM

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Look, President Bush has already said that the he was taking the blame for failures at the federal level.

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I'm sure he takes some blame for a lot of problems in the FEMA screwup after the city was already underwater. But that doesn't mean that everything that went wrong is his fault. In fact, very little of this is his fault. Most of the blame falls squarely on Nagin and Blanco for not doing anything until Bush illegally (?) took charge and deployed the active-duty military in to do the State's work for it. If competent leadership had been displayed by Nagin and Blanco there wouldn't have to be an evacuation of the Superdome and we wouldn't be hearing these ghastly reports of critical patients at hospitals being euthanized. I almost feel sorry for Nagin because I have a feeling that he's going to be lynched if he ever sets foot in his city again.

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I still think, from what I've read, that Blanco asked for federal help on Saturday 8/27/05. Read it in the link I provide in the post above. So is that the date, or does anyone see it as Friday 9/2/05, when the feds really got involved.

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Friday is when the active-duty military was sent into New Orleans, something very rare in American history, and only because the State had utterly failed to do its job. Guard continued to slowly roll in, which shows that Blanco wasn't on the ball because it is the governor of a State that is responsible for the deployment of the Guard.You did a good job finding Blanco's letter but it is completely irrelevant. Nothing she asked for made any difference. To be fair, it was only a Cat 3 when she wrote it.This message has been edited by gene90, 09-14-2005 10:50 AM

“No, that's a press release from his office.”It doesn’t say on the document that it is a press release; I think it was an authorization for FEMA to go to work. But for the sake of argument let’s call it a press release.
So I was in error when I said Bush said.Her estimate of 9 million dollars was wrong, but that’s understandable considering she did it before any damage had occurred. Granted I would not use her to do any bids on any construction projects. But low dollar estimates are not a crime.“............ finding Blanco's letter but it is completely irrelevant. Nothing she asked for made any difference. To be fair, it was only a Cat 3 when she wrote it.”What I read from the letter was that she was asking for was federal help because “the effective response is beyond the capabilities of the State and affected local governments”. She did this on the 27 and landfall was the 29 that is correct. But I am sure that she just didn’t put a stamp on the letter and mail it to Bush. I bet there was a phone call in there somewhere. And depending on the time frame of the call and landfall, it could have been 48 hours. That does not seem unreasonable.“To be fair, it was only a Cat 3 when she wrote it.”Let me get this straight.
First she doesn’t react fast enough, slow to respond.Second she reacts to fast because it is only a cat 3 storm, even though all predictions said that is could develop into a cat 4 or 5 before landfall, and that it will landfall somewhere around New Orleans.Ok, I think I understand now.This message has been edited by Peal, 09-14-2005 06:27 PM

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Her estimate of 9 million dollars was wrong, but that’s understandable considering she did it before any damage had occurred.

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Right, I agree with you on that. As I said, the storm was only a category three at the time and that request was preemptive.

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What I read from the letter was that she was asking for was federal help because “the effective response is beyond the capabilities of the State and affected local governments”. She did this on the 27 and landfall was the 29 that is correct. But I am sure that she just didn’t put a stamp on the letter and mail it to Bush. I bet there was a phone call in there somewhere. And depending on the time frame of the call and landfall, it could have been 48 hours. That does not seem unreasonable.

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The reason I'm not impressed by that letter is that it specifically enumerated exactly what we she wanted from FEMA, as per the protocol. Nothing that she asked for made a difference once the levee breached. The reason Bush didn't send in the 82nd Airborne on the 29th was because she didn't ask. You cannot reasonably fault FEMA or the Administration for not preempting the formal requests of the governor and sending in the Army to deal with a local problem. It would be illegal for the Federal government to do so.Naturally, sending the regular armed forces in to impose civil order onto American civilians without permission from local elected authorities is serious business, in a form of government like ours, and a governor needs to ask for it explicitly. We shouldn't have to put mind-readers in Washington to interpret what Gov. Blanco is "really" asking for when she apparently cannot express herself verbally, and I'm afraid that her failure to uphold her obligations in requesting aid can be called nothing less than incompetence.

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Let me get this straight.
First she doesn’t react fast enough, slow to respond.

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Right.

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Second she reacts to fast because it is only a cat 3 storm

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No, I don't fault her for that. When she issued that request, she was doing exactly what she should have been doing.The problem is that the assistance she asked for was not consistent with the kind of Federal aid her State would need should it be struck with a Category Four or Five storm. When that happens, there is no evidence that she upgraded her requests to include what she really needed, namely a significant military deployment. And when the levee breached, and New Orleans began to teeter on anarchy, she failed to request Federal troops.Further, you want to blame Bush for the time delay between the levee breach and the arrival of assitance, when that is not Bush's fault but Blanco's.There is a video segment pulled off of CNN and posted on the Internet that I would like for you to view. In it, Gov. Blanco is caught on a microphone telling an aide that "she wished she had asked for troops". It was followed by an interview segment with Miles O'Brien who pressed her to admit that she did not ask for Federal troops until Wednesday--the time at which, according to the Administration, troops started moving. Basically, it's an admission by Blanco that her failure to specifically request deployment of troops from Washington caused the delay. The problem is that she was clearly not familiar with her responsibility as governor in asking for assistance.ForbiddenFurther, I would point out that had Mayor Nagin used all those buses now sitting in four feet or so of water to get the poor out of New Orleans, this wouldn't have been such a problem to begin with.And finally, there's a little opinion piece I'd like to link to.Jack Kelly: No shameHighlights of it are:

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"The federal government pretty much met its standard time lines, but the volume of support provided during the 72-96 hour was unprecedented. The federal response here was faster than Hugo, faster than Andrew, faster than Iniki, faster than Francine and Jeanne."

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For instance, it took five days for National Guard troops to arrive in strength on the scene in Homestead, Fla. after Hurricane Andrew hit in 1992. But after Katrina, there was a significant National Guard presence in the afflicted region in three.

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And:

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"The United States military can wipe out the Taliban and the Iraqi Republican Guard far more swiftly than they can bring 3 million Swanson dinners to an underwater city through an area the size of Great Britain which has no power, no working ports or airports, and a devastated and impassable road network.

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"You cannot speed recovery and relief efforts up by prepositioning assets (in the affected areas) since the assets are endangered by the very storm which destroyed the region.

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"No amount of yelling, crying and mustering of moral indignation will change any of the facts above."

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"You cannot just snap your fingers and make the military appear somewhere," van Steenwyk said.

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This message has been edited by gene90, 09-14-2005 07:16 PM

What, all 300 or so of them? That's what, maybe 10,000 people? Out of the 90,000 estimated to have stayed in the city?

at least three days? we try to get stuff to last at least a week down here after frances.why does it say three days? a couple of reasons.

• sometimes it takes longer than an hour or two for the storm to even pass. frances churned over my rooftop for about a day from the time everything shut down for the storm to the time we felt safe leaving the house.
• three day's supply of food tends not to actually last three days when all you have to do is sit around watching the weather channel (or listening to the radio). you're living on stale bread, tap water, and condiments suprisingly quickly. it's nice not to have to.
• sometimes, people get trapped. it may be impossible to even leave your home due to damage, live wires in puddles, or injury.
• it may also be impossible for rescue workers, tree companies, or fema to get to your area in a timely manner due to flooding, road blockage, or other obstructions.
• you may end up sharing supplies with an unprepared neighbor.

you also have to remember that "3 days" is a "just in case" precaution, for the absolute worst-case scenario. 3 days, therefor, is the MAXIMUM response time in a normal disaster. they say "at least" because the more prepared you are the better. normally, you'd never have to use them.frankly, fema bungled frances too. they did nothing. they distributed some repair money after the hurricane, and paid for a few generators. but a lot of the money went to (maimi-)dade county -- which is ironic. a lot of us went to dade too: to find food, gas, and air conditioned spaces. there's sure was! oh, wait, that's right. that's why we have the dhs and fema. for when there are massive state and local failures.i'd also like to point out obvious: what would they use the buses for?to evacuate people from the city? no, not really. ever seen a highway in an evacuation? here's what it looks like: now, i do consider it a failure on the local level to not open the other lanes. i think they did at some point, but they should have done it sooner. but the fact of the matter is that if they filled up every single working school bus and public transportation bus within the city, and put them all out on the highway, they would have gotten one bus load each out of the city and to safety.instead, a more ideal plan is to use every bus repeatedly, and ferry people to a safe location within the city -- evacuation shelters. ie: the superdome. that way, you evacuate maybe 3 or 4 busloads per bus from the flood zones. much more people are saved from harm. this apparently was what they were used for.i think it's downright retarded and shortsighted for people to keep bringing this up. it is unrealistic to place ALL of the responsibility on state and local officials, and none of the federal ones. the idea of ferrying multiple busloads to a safe place within the city doesn't work if the feds don't come to bail them out.fema did not keep up their end of the bargain. and given the severity of the storm, and the requests for help that came from the state and local officials you're blaming BEFORE the storm, they should have been prepared to get there in a timely manner.also, i wouldn't trust your image source too much, either. here's the address:http://www.blindmanphoto.com/images/Stop-Blaming-FEMA.jpgfrom the front page:

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"Blindman Photography" is a digital photo retouching, creation and photography shop that uses the latest technologies for scanning, printing and digital photo manipulation.

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and their example: here's some more obvious politically biased photomanipulation: in other words, you might wanna verrify that with other sources. there's no verification that, for instance, the water in the top left inset is only two feet deep. we have no verification how well they work, either. two feet of water might be enough to flood a city transit bus (which have engines remarkably low to the ground). we have no verification that the other buses work, or that there are drivers or gas.

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אָרַח

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146 city buses, less than a mile from the Superdome. Enough to transport about 9,000 people.

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File:Bus1b-norta.jpg - Wikinews, the free news sourcealthough that doesn't look like 146 buses to me. and it fails to mention that they're sort of flooded. bias is fun!

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אָרַח

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What, all 300 or so of them? That's what, maybe 10,000 people? Out of the 90,000 estimated to have stayed in the city?

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I'm sure 10,000 people would be really glad not to have had to have been guests of the Superdome, don't you agree?The fact is, that's 10,000 people that Nagin could have gotten out but didn't. Saying that it's "only 10,000" is irrelevant to the point. The fact is, Nagin botched the evacuation. He can forget about ever being mayor again, he'll be lucky if he doesn't end up getting lynched over this.By the way, only 300 buses? 300 * 40 = 12,000 kids in the whole city.Here are the real population demographics for New Orleans, based on the 2000 Census:5 to 9 years: 37,133
10 to 14 years: 36,769
15 to 19 years: 38,312Source: New Orleans Population and Demographics (New Orleans, LA)In other words, the City of New Orleans Public School District moves close to 112,214 people twice each weekday during the school year.112,214 > 90,000Let's see how many school buses there should actually be in New Orleans.112,214 / 40 = 2,805 busesHow many adults can you cram into a schoolbus when you need to move as many as you can?The answer, courtesy of the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration:

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Question 3: When calculating the minimum emergency exit space required on school buses used in non-school bus operations, should two or three passengers per bench seat be used in determining the adult seating capacity?

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Guidance: The NHTSA has indicated that "School buses can transport 3 to a seat if the passengers are in grades 1 through 5, and 2 per seat in grades 9 through 12." (May 9, 1995, 60 FR 24562, 24567) Therefore, for vehicles originally manufactured as school buses, the total pupil seating capacity provided by the bus manufacturer should be multiplied by 2/3 to determine the adult seating capacity for the purposes of 393.61 . This generally yields the same result as using two adults per bench seat.

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(2/3) * 112,214 = 74,809 people out of 90,000 remaining in New Orleans.I suspect 75,000 is probably more people than would have voluntarily evacuated, In fact, it's more than twice the maximum number of people that were in the Superdome.That is only the buses owned by the school system. That's in addition to the 364 buses owned by the New Orleans Regional Transit Authority, the ones you were assuming were the only buses in the city. At fourty per bus, you could have removed an additional 14,560.Here's a nice image of school buses sitting uselessly in the water: No matter how you look at it, Nagin is responsible failing to provide suitable evacuation.This message has been edited by gene90, 09-14-2005 08:23 PMThis message has been edited by gene90, 09-14-2005 08:25 PM

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at least three days? we try to get stuff to last at least a week down here after frances.

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Right. And it took five days after Andrew, but FEMA was moving into place within three days after the storm.Reality: the Federal government moves like molasses. In fact, they did unusually well in this hurricane.

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there's sure was! oh, wait, that's right. that's why we have the dhs and fema. for when there are massive state and local failures.

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Yeah, to clean up Nagin's mess. And it took a while to do that because he left such a mess.

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i'd also like to point out obvious: what would they use the buses for?

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to evacuate people from the city? no, not really. ever seen a highway in an evacuation? here's what it looks like:

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That's nonsense. Authorities don't tell people not to evacuate.

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NEW ORLEANS (AP) - With a Category Five hurricane bearing down on New Orleans, which is below-sea-level, Mayor Ray Nagin made what pleas he could to his fellow citizens to flee and then left it in the hands of a higher power.

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Nagin ordered a mandatory evacuation for the city's 485,000 residents and opened the Superdome as a shelter of last resort. Nagin bluntly warned those who are staying that they would be at the mercy of Katrina's high winds, 28-foot storm surge and 15 inches of rain

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Emphasis mine.http://www.kait8.com/Global/story.asp?S=3776171&nav=0jshdqjpI remember the authorities saying again and again leading up to this storm that nowhere in New Orleans is safe. I even recall somebody being quoted as saying "There aren't going to be enough body bags if people don't listen". That tells me that the advice was to get out of the city.Now, are you trying to tell me that it would be safer in the Superdome than to try to evacuate? Because not only does that directly contradict Nagin's advice (just about the only thing he got right) but just about every other competent authority. And finally, I note that there was not still traffic on the exit routes when the hurricane struck. Which means that there would have been time to get additional people out.So, let's get this straight. Nagin tells everyone with a car that they had better get out of town, but keeps the poor in the Superdome because it's safer than trying to flee? Here, let me go get the tinfoil because this little piece of illogic sounds vaguely conspiratorial.This message has been edited by gene90, 09-14-2005 08:37 PM