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Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Department Of Homeland Security Inaction At the Top | |||||||||||||||||||||||
gene90 Member (Idle past 3851 days) Posts: 1610 Joined: |
Now, as for this:
Yeah, of course it was made by somebody that knows how to digitally manipulate images. Unless you believe that Mayor Nagin was out there on Tuesday with spray paint pointing out his failures for passing satellites. If he did, then I know what his next career should be. Your argument about blindmanphoto.com is an expression of the Genetic Fallacy. It's also begging the question since I note that you haven't actually presented any evidence of faking, but instead are casually mentioning the possibility to advance your position. This message has been edited by gene90, 09-14-2005 08:29 PM This message has been edited by AdminJar, 09-14-2005 07:50 PM
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gene90 Member (Idle past 3851 days) Posts: 1610 Joined: |
quote: So far you haven't explained why it wouldn't work.
quote: Yeah, Blanco asked for $9 million. That wasn't enough to do anything. Governors have to specifically enumerate what they want from FEMA. Blanco didn't do that because she didn't have a clue as to what her responsibilities were as governor.
quote: They did get there in a timely manner. They got there in three days, it took them five with Andrew. This message has been edited by gene90, 09-14-2005 08:46 PM
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1372 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
You cannot reasonably fault FEMA or the Administration for not preempting the formal requests of the governor and sending in the Army to deal with a local problem. It would be illegal for the Federal government to do so. uh, no. it wouldn't. see, we live a federal democratic republic, not a confederacy. that means that the federal government has authority over the state governments. we kind of sorted this issue out back in the civil war. frankly, once a state of emergency has been declared by the president, the federal government has the authority to use any resources it wants to help. this is title 42, section 5170, a and b.
quote: quote: quote: now, those dod resources are of course the armed forces. so the governor asks the president to declare a state of disaster. the president then has the authority to control any federal, state, or local agency. any, including fema, dhs, the army, the navy, etc. the governor may also specifically ask for the armed forces, but such does not seem to be required as the dod is one such federal agency in part a. while we're looking at usc, here's 5195 of the same title:
quote: that whol section basically outlines what agencies like the dhs and fema SHOULD do.
Naturally, sending the regular armed forces in to impose civil order onto American civilians without permission from local elected authorities is serious business, in a form of government like ours, and a governor needs to ask for it explicitly. as you can see above, the president has the authority to utilize and coordinate ANY federal agency, including the dod, for disaster relief. but the general procedure seems to be that the governer should ask for the dod's assistance -- because, like you said. martial law is a serious thing.
We shouldn't have to put mind-readers in Washington to interpret what Gov. Blanco is "really" asking for when she apparently cannot express herself verbally, and I'm afraid that her failure to uphold her obligations in requesting aid can be called nothing less than incompetence. governor blanco was asking for a state of disaster. she got that. that's all that was needed to authorize the president to help. also, according to the report came back from the congressional research service that blanco took the neccessary steps in a timely fashion: Join Our Campaign to Defeat Trump's Republican Agenda so, uh, officially, she did EXACTLY what she was supposed to do. i wouldn't call that incompetence. she gave the authority for the president to act before the storm made landfall. the president took that authority by declaring disaster. somewhere between there and mike brown's "we just learned of this today" is where the incompetance REALLY occured.
The problem is that the assistance she asked for was not consistent with the kind of Federal aid her State would need should it be struck with a Category Four or Five storm. When that happens, there is no evidence that she upgraded her requests to include what she really needed you don't have to spell out what you need. if you read the above and the other sections related to it, it's up to feds to determine what you need. all you have to do is say "we can't handle it on our own, help us" and get the prez to declare disaster.
And when the levee breached, and New Orleans began to teeter on anarchy, she failed to request Federal troops. well, i've just shown that even if true, your argument doesn't hold much water (so to speak). unfortunately, it's NOT true:
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1372 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
quote:So far you haven't explained why it wouldn't work. i thought i wouldn't need to. i guess neither you nore michael brown have a tv. it doesn't work because there's only a limited supply of food, water, and facilities. the choice is between saving 9k people period, or saving 100k for three days in the hopes of rescue that is supposedly gauranteed, most reasonable people would take the 100k over the 9.
Yeah, Blanco asked for $9 million. That wasn't enough to do anything. Governors have to specifically enumerate what they want from FEMA. they absolutely do not. read the LAWS i just posted that say the president is responsible for coordination and advisement of the relief effort. NOT the governor.
They did get there in a timely manner. They got there in three days, it took them five with Andrew. according to brown, it took them three days to FIND OUT about it. not get there. nearest i can tell, from blanco's initial request, it took FIVE days (aug 26th to aug 31) for bush to get around to coordinating anything, and EIGHT days for fema to coordinate an evacuation effort (aug 26th to sep 3rd). so no, that's not timely.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1495 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
y the way, only 300 buses? 300 * 40 = 12,000 kids in the whole city. You're generous enough to assume that New Orleans has a bus seat for every student in a NO school? Apparently you don't understand what kind of place NO is. Look, we know from their own records how many buses the New Orleans Parish School system owns, from their own records: 324, in 2003, the most recent number avaliable. Not almost 3000. Now, I've seen New Orleans schools. Have you? I saw buildings that couldn't afford to fix broken windows or have air conditioning during days that top 100 degrees or more; I don't think that the parish bought 2500 school buses in the last two years, do you? That plus the public buses owned by New Orleans RTA comes to 688. 688 *40 is 27,000 or so. Assuming that every single bus was usable, which we know was not the case - many people did leave in buses both before and after so those buses aren't avaliable for the public evacuation. Plus about 70 were apparently non-working. Before the hurricane, the Times-Picayune investigated the use of public buses to evacuate the city; their investigation concluded the New Orleans had enough buses to evacuate only 22,000 people. There were not 2,000 buses. There were not 2800 buses. There were less than 700.
The fact is, that's 10,000 people that Nagin could have gotten out but didn't. Many of the buses were used to evacuate city residents, as many of the surviors can attest. But mobilizing the city's buses in a coordinated effort to rescue people in streets becoming rapidly impassable to vehicles likely would have entailed a cost in manpower not commensurate with the benefit. Did the mayor do everything he could have? No, I don't believe he did. But criticisms of his actions should be grounded in provable fact, in the truth, and not in the ravings of the right-wingers in full-on "blame anybody but Bush" mode. It doesn't do anybody any good to concoct a story to make it look like Nagin held the salvation of the city in the palm of his hand and threw it away when he did no such thing.
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gene90 Member (Idle past 3851 days) Posts: 1610 Joined: |
quote: I'll agree with you here because I think you have adequately established this. However, it doesn't matter too much because Blanco has already admitted her failure on CNN. Forbidden This message has been edited by gene90, 09-14-2005 09:10 PM This message has been edited by gene90, 09-14-2005 09:10 PM
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1372 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
By the way, only 300 buses? 300 * 40 = 12,000 kids in the whole city. Here are the real population demographics for New Orleans, based on the 2000 Census: 5 to 9 years: 37,13310 to 14 years: 36,769 15 to 19 years: 38,312 Source: New Orleans Population and Demographics (New Orleans, LA) uh. no. that's NOT a bussing statistic. that's a population statistic. it's assuming that everyone rides the bus. they do not. many, many people are driven by parents or walk. (did you ever go to school? this is a pretty simple observation...)
In other words, the City of New Orleans Public School District moves close to 112,214 people twice each weekday during the school year. even if they DID move 112 thousand people a day, they'd be doing it in THREE SHIFTS. that drops the number of buses to a third of whatever you're thinking. that's 935 buses, assuming EVERYONE rides a bus to school, and everyone goes to school. see why short shifts are vastly better at moving people than long hauls? 300 come buses sounds reasonable, considering that not everyone rides the bus.
Here's a nice image of school buses sitting uselessly in the water: yes. uselessly.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1372 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
I'll agree with you here because I think you have adequately established this. However, it doesn't matter too much because Blanco has already admitted her failure on CNN. which is funny. because newsweek has a date for her asking for troops.
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gene90 Member (Idle past 3851 days) Posts: 1610 Joined: |
quote: Let's assume your figure is correct, since you didn't bother to cite a source. 400 Transit buses and 300 School buses. At forty people per bus, that's 28,000 people that could have gotten out of the city but didn't, assuming they only have time to make one run. That's 28,000 people that could have gotten out of a doomed city before a 30-ft storm surge arrived, had the original forecasts come to pass. Whether it is 28,000 or 70,000, it is still negligence.
quote: Not commensurate with the benefit? 28,000 people is close to the maximum number of people that were trapped by Nagin in the Superdome. This isn't a small number of people.
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gene90 Member (Idle past 3851 days) Posts: 1610 Joined: |
quote: That's doubly funny because Blanco doesn't have a date. She told the CNN reporter that she "couldn't remember" what day it was when she requested troops, and I have the video. Great leadership in action. Also recorded and played over the cable network was her telling an assistant that she "should've asked for troops". This message has been edited by gene90, 09-14-2005 09:25 PM
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1372 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
Yeah, of course it was made by somebody that knows how to digitally manipulate images pointing out the obvious. the person who posted the pic intends to mislead with imagery. did you check that the satellite pictures were accurate? you don't need to mess about in photoshop to mislead with images. for instance those "unused buses" right next to the superdome appear to be tractor-trailers. as do the ones in the convention center lot. the big white long boxes are SOLID (you can tell by the shado they cast) and the occasional one has a rounded thing in front of it. here's a better resolution photo from goole earth from before the hurricane (check the coords, btw, if you don't believe me). these look like buses to you?
in other words, the captions are TOTALLY misleading.
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gene90 Member (Idle past 3851 days) Posts: 1610 Joined: |
quote: Yeah, but it gives a baseline estimate of how many kids go to school in New Orleans, and that number ought to be about 70% at least, by my expectations. However, the catch is that I didn't go to school in a majory city where it could be more feasible to walk. However, the fundamental problem is that even if you only have 700 buses, you can still get 28,000 people out of the city ahead of the storm.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1372 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
That's doubly funny because Blanco doesn't have a date. She told the CNN reporter that she "couldn't remember" what day it was when she requested troops, and I have the video. Great leadership in action. ok. what date did that interview air? on what date did you last do your laundry? get your haircut? if i press you for answers in an interview, and don't give you time to think, will you have answers? she had a date and an approx. time for newsweek.
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gene90 Member (Idle past 3851 days) Posts: 1610 Joined: |
quote: Not familiar with the concept of a dual-use facility, are you? Here, maybe you'll like this one better. It's hosted at Snopes.com
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1372 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
Not commensurate with the benefit? 28,000 people is close to the maximum number of people that were trapped by Nagin in the Superdome. This isn't a small number of people. nor is it a small number to jam up the highways with. or a small number to trap outside sturdy shelter in a category four storm. there's a point at which it's no longer safe to be outside in a hurricane. everything until then is a RACE to safety. ANY safety.
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