Department Of Homeland Security Inaction At the Top

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ok. what date did that interview air?

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on what date did you last do your laundry? get your haircut?

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Asking the President of the United States to send Federal troops into one of my cities that just got hit by the worst disaster in American history is something a little bit more memorable than doing the laundry or getting a haircut, and any governor that would feel otherwise is unfit to lead and any person who would make that comparison on an Internet discussion board is grasping at straws. Have you seriously thought this out?

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she had a date and an approx. time for newsweek.

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And on CNN she had an admission that she "should have asked for troops".This message has been edited by gene90, 09-14-2005 09:34 PM

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nor is it a small number to jam up the highways with. or a small number to trap outside sturdy shelter in a category four storm.

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there's a point at which it's no longer safe to be outside in a hurricane. everything until then is a RACE to safety. ANY safety.

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In other words, you believe that 500 buses would lengthen the evacuation time to the point where there would be people trapped on the road during the hurricane.Would you like to make an attempt at substantiating this speculation?Because it unadulterated nonsense. N.O. officials were telling people to get out any way they could. Further, the roads leading out of the city were closed at about 9 PM Sunday night, hours before landfall the next morning. There was no traffic remaining there at that time.This message has been edited by gene90, 09-14-2005 09:46 PM

No, I did cite a source - the New Orleans Parish school district.But I did mean to be a little more forthcoming than I was. Here's the source: No webpage found at provided URL: http://mediamatters.org/items/200509120005Well, wait now, there's a big difference between 28,000 - actually 22,000 was the figure, which I guess you forgot - and 70,000. And you're asserting that none of the buses wound up being used at all, which I already told you wasn't true.Negligent? I don't know. Using those buses was part of the plan, so presumably there's could be a reason that part of the plan wasn't followed. Or maybe not. And remember too that those buses were used - to ferry people to the Superdome.Now, using the Superdome as an overweather site isn't the stupidest idea in the world, but throwing those people in there without enough officers to keep order was. We're only beginning to appreciate the horror that place became. I fully support the idea that we need to look into why officers weren't there; did Nagin have the forces to deploy in that area? If not then the responsibility moves up the chain. In streets that you couldn't drive a bus through, in a city totally cut off from the highways. I'm sorry but I don't see the case for negligence, yet. And I don't see that making up numbers about nonexistent buses solves anything. Maybe you'd like to try to defend your behavior in that regard?

sure i am.but, uh, care to tell me what that facility is? why it's in a commercial/industrial zone? what its functions are? and more importantly, why they still look like tractor-trailers even in that graphic? (blow it up if you don't believe me) ah, the big green raspberry face.no, we've all seen the buses underwater. what do you want these flooded buses to do? sprout wings and fly the people out of there?if THIS facility, the one on dry land, IS a bussing facility, the fact that there are NO BUSES at it kind of hinders your point, doesn't it?

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when you state just turned into hell, and you've been talking from everyone including the president and the heads of fema and the dhs down to cnn, newsweek, and even your average citizens, it's pretty easy to see why the specifics of ONE particular conversation might have been difficult to recall. also, since you can't tell me WHEN that cnn interview aired (the irony here) it's quite possible that it was BEFORE she asked for troops.

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אָרַח

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But I did mean to be a little more forthcoming than I was. Here's the source:

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http://mediamatters.org/items/200509120005

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Fair enough, thank you.

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Well, wait now, there's a big difference between 28,000 - actually 22,000 was the figure, which I guess you forgot - and 70,000. And you're asserting that none of the buses wound up being used at all, which I already told you wasn't true.

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Actually that figure varies depending on how good you are at people packing.

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Negligent? I don't know. Using those buses was part of the plan, so presumably there's could be a reason that part of the plan wasn't followed. Or maybe not.

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Or maybe Nagin failed to follow his own city's plan for some unfathomable reason. But the fact that the official plan had the buses being used in that matter kind of steals the wind from Arachnid's speculation about the roads being crowded when the storm hit.

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And remember too that those buses were used - to ferry people to the Superdome.

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Yeah, a building that was not designed to withstand a Category 5 hurricane and which is thought by some to have received major structural damage. Had the forecasts come true, it could have been a deathtrap.

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Now, using the Superdome as an overweather site isn't the stupidest idea in the world, but throwing those people in there without enough officers to keep order was. We're only beginning to appreciate the horror that place became. I fully support the idea that we need to look into why officers weren't there; did Nagin have the forces to deploy in that area? If not then the responsibility moves up the chain.

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And theoretically, Governor Blanco is the next one up that chain, since she is responsible for commanding the Louisiana National Guard.

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In streets that you couldn't drive a bus through, in a city totally cut off from the highways.

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At what point prior to the landfall of Hurricane Katrina was New Orleans "cut off" from the highways? Considering that most of the population managed to drive themselves out, I think you should explain that.I'm sorry but I don't see the case for negligence, yet. And I don't see that making up numbers about nonexistent buses solves anything. Maybe you'd like to try to defend your behavior in that regard?

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And I don't see that making up numbers about nonexistent buses solves anything. Maybe you'd like to try to defend your behavior in that regard?

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Your questioning of my ethics is not justified, considering each of the assumptions that I made are clearly visible and I cited my source as to the number of school-age children.That isn't "making up" numbers, it is generating a reasonable estimate from what information you have. If you are seriously questioning my character, I hope you aren't planing any kind of career in science because that's how it works. You make inferences from what data you can get. Sometimes you are right, sometimes you aren't. Maybe you should take a minute and relax before you go around assaulting character because you don't like somebody's math?This message has been edited by gene90, 09-14-2005 10:19 PM

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when you state just turned into hell, and you've been talking from everyone including the president and the heads of fema and the dhs down to cnn, newsweek, and even your average citizens, it's pretty easy to see why the specifics of ONE particular conversation might have been difficult to recall.

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I would think that you would remember calling for help.Come on, do you really think asking for troops from the President of the United States is like washing your laundry?

if they tried to come back for a second trip, probably. at a certain point, the reversed the other lanes of traffic, i think. which would have made a return trip impossible. leaving MORE people stranded that repeated trips to and from the superdome. yes. because the roads were closed. you're saying you want people to be out driving when the roads are closed due to an impending disaster?and have you ever BEEN to nola? there's basically two ways out of the city. i10 to baton rouge, or over lake ponchartrain. the i10 between nola and baton rouge is elevated, because it goes over a swamp. basically, it's about an hour and a half trip on an overpass, going 60-70.the eye made landfall at 7 am the next morning. you think they're not getting dangerous wind and rain before that? why do you THINK they closed the roads at 9pm?everything shuts down at a certain point. EVERYTHING.

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yes, and she did.you've neglected to tell me when the interview aired.

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if they tried to come back for a second trip, probably.

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If the tried to come back for a second tripWell, maybe you didn't notice that my calculations were assuming one trip.

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at a certain point, the reversed the other lanes of traffic, i think. which would have made a return trip impossible.

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"At a certain point"?When I-10 closed at about 9 Sunday night there wasn't any traffic stuck there. The buses could have left and made it just fine. Especially considering that 30 MPH is burning rubber for a hurricane.

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leaving MORE people stranded that repeated trips to and from the superdome.

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Which is the "shelter of last resort", and the mayor said that he could not guarantee the safety of anyone there.

the superdome was built to withstand 200mph wind.katrina had 175mp wind sustained as a category 5, and gusts of 215. it dropped by about 30 mph, to below the category 5 boundary just before landfall.so, yes, the superdome was built to withstand a category 5 hurricane. supposedly. the fact that part of it failed (probably due to low pressure from the bernoulli effect) was something that was NOT forseen (unlike those levee breaches). according to you, 9pm sunday. the city, btw, was already flooding at that point.

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yes, and she did.

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No, she didn't. Here is the video, again:Forbidden

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you've neglected to tell me when the interview aired.

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Well, let's see. The news ticker said that "Sunday" there was a mass demonstration against the King of Nepal, and that "Saturday" shots were fired at the Afghan defense minister.Sunday Demonstration in Nepal:
Page doesn't exist(Sep 4)Shots fired at Afghan defense minister on Saturday:
MSN | Outlook, Office, Skype, Bing, Breaking News, and Latest Videos
(Sep 12)There's your approximate age of the broadcast.

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the superdome was built to withstand 200mph wind.

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That's pretty shady.From WikiPedia:

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The Superdome was built to withstand most catastrophes; the roof was ostensibly estimated to be able to withstand winds with speeds of up to 200 mph, but flood waters could still possibly reach the second level 20 feet from the ground, making the structure an unreliable shelter in severe rain and wind. However, when looking into the origins of this 200 mph wind security in the Superdome, CNN reported that no engineering study has ever been completed on the amount of wind the structure can withstand; the building's engineering study was underway as Hurricane Katrina approached and was put on hold. It was used as an emergency shelter although it was not designed nor tested for the task.

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Caesars Superdome - Wikipedia

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katrina had 175mp wind sustained as a category 5, and gusts of 215. it dropped by about 30 mph, to below the category 5 boundary just before landfall.

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I am talking about what could have happened had the original forecasts been accurate. I am well aware that it was four when it made landfall.

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according to you.

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Now you're just going out of your way to be uncivil.You have not justified your speculation that 500 buses would cause people to be trapped on the interstate.Do you have any intention of doing so? Can you name the logical fallacy you are using if you don't?

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the city, btw, was already flooding at that point.

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Also incorrect.From WikiPedia:

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The storm made landfall at 6:10am. After 11:00am, several sections of the levee system in New Orleans collapsed. Mandatory evacuation of New Orleans had been ordered by the mayor Ray Nagin before the hurricane struck, on August 28. The order was repeated on August 31. By early September, people were being forcibly evacuated, mostly by bus to neighboring states.

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Hurricane Katrina - Wikipedia

which is more effective, one long trip out of the city, or lots and lots of short trips to local higher ground? have you ever been in a hurricane? i mean, honestly. because it sure sounds like you have no idea what you're talking about. when the roads are closed, it's because you SHOULDN'T be on them, because it's too dangerous to be out there.at 9pm the lake was starting to come into the city. there was enough wind and rain at that point... well. let's see a picture. find baton rouge on the map, would ya? this was taken at just shy of 1 am, august 29th, greenwich mean time. if i counted right, that's about 7 pm sunday night, two hours before the roads were closed.if i had to guess, i'd say that abotu 7 pm, i10 was under category 1 or 2 hurricane conditions.and you want people to TRAVEL on it during that time?

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shall i link to the newsweek article again, where she DOES have a date? so sometime between september 4th and 12th?yet this week, she gave a specific day and time of day?

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