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Author Topic:   What to believe, crisis of faith
Aztraph
Member (Idle past 6198 days)
Posts: 53
From: Seymour, Indiana, United States
Joined: 07-25-2005


Message 1 of 302 (243547)
09-14-2005 9:35 PM


How does one know what to believe/trust/put their Faith in? Science or the Bible?
I am familiar with both and discovered that I have a have a problem deciding what to believe in. I grew up in a Christian home and I do believe in God (whether or not that is the same God as the mainstream Christianity, I do not know); it wasn't till I got to college that I started learning things about mainstream Christianity that made me question a few things.
I have trouble believing that the Bible is the Word of God; it was inspired by God for certain, but taken down, written and translated by man. Man is fallible, man is corrupt, and man has a tendency, in all things, to serve their own interests.
So how can I trust the Bible? I have also studied the history of the Bible, when the pope of the Roman Catholic Church decided that all the Roman Catholics were now Christians and had to find new reasons for celebrating the holidays already in place. The winter celebration (forgive my lack of spelling this) saturnalia (?) became Christmas. The giving of gifts merely a ploy to boost a subdued winter economy.
Easter, there is a good one; they didn't even change the name! Easter is the name of the pagan god of fertility, the rabbit and eggs too. What better holiday to celebrate the resurrection of Christ.
Now for the real kicker, I have spent the last decade a student of science theory, formulating ideas and classifying myself as a real free thinker (just not a real good speller). But a few days ago I realized that I was basing most of my ideas on other peoples work, and I fall back into the trap of questioning motives if not reliability. How can I believe in something created by man? Oh I'm sure there’s a lot of evidence, but the interpretation of that evidence, even basic observations, gets skewed. I can't trust what others have observed (and I don't know the math well enough to go and get my own.
Is there a solution to this quandary? I believe in God and I believe in science, but I can't put my faith in any one of them because of mans influence. Sometimes I feel a little like Alice in Wonderland when faced with 2 doors, one that could not tell a truth and the other that could not tell a lie.
What’s the right question to ask?
spellcheck by PB
This message has been edited by AdminPhat, 09-15-2005 06:35 AM

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by crashfrog, posted 09-14-2005 9:50 PM Aztraph has replied
 Message 6 by nwr, posted 09-14-2005 10:33 PM Aztraph has replied
 Message 12 by arachnophilia, posted 09-15-2005 12:46 AM Aztraph has not replied
 Message 13 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-15-2005 1:40 AM Aztraph has not replied
 Message 16 by TheLiteralist, posted 09-15-2005 2:00 AM Aztraph has replied
 Message 17 by TheLiteralist, posted 09-15-2005 2:05 AM Aztraph has replied
 Message 21 by iano, posted 09-15-2005 7:22 AM Aztraph has replied
 Message 23 by PaulK, posted 09-15-2005 8:25 AM Aztraph has replied
 Message 24 by Phat, posted 09-15-2005 8:47 AM Aztraph has replied
 Message 32 by purpledawn, posted 09-15-2005 9:42 AM Aztraph has replied
 Message 38 by Rahvin, posted 09-15-2005 1:01 PM Aztraph has replied
 Message 65 by Ben!, posted 09-16-2005 12:14 AM Aztraph has replied
 Message 294 by Damaris, posted 10-01-2005 2:33 AM Aztraph has replied

Aztraph
Member (Idle past 6198 days)
Posts: 53
From: Seymour, Indiana, United States
Joined: 07-25-2005


Message 3 of 302 (243555)
09-14-2005 9:54 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by crashfrog
09-14-2005 9:50 PM


[There's your problem right there. You need to get out of this mindset that you need to have "faith" in something.]
Could you elaborate?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by crashfrog, posted 09-14-2005 9:50 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by crashfrog, posted 09-14-2005 10:09 PM Aztraph has replied
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Aztraph
Member (Idle past 6198 days)
Posts: 53
From: Seymour, Indiana, United States
Joined: 07-25-2005


Message 5 of 302 (243567)
09-14-2005 10:22 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by crashfrog
09-14-2005 10:09 PM


On the other hand, if you'd rather be mostly right, and getting righter, than eternally and unchanginly wrong, then that's what science has to offer.
I think what I really want to know is the truth, and know it's right. Whatever that might be.
But does it exhists?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by crashfrog, posted 09-14-2005 10:09 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by crashfrog, posted 09-14-2005 10:55 PM Aztraph has replied
 Message 42 by Silent H, posted 09-15-2005 6:30 PM Aztraph has not replied

Aztraph
Member (Idle past 6198 days)
Posts: 53
From: Seymour, Indiana, United States
Joined: 07-25-2005


Message 8 of 302 (243593)
09-14-2005 11:15 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by nwr
09-14-2005 10:33 PM


But there are lots of things you can check. For example, you travel by automobile, airplane, etc. That should give you a lot of confidence that the science behind these forms of travel is sound.
- True, but my consernes do not include the internal combustion
- engine. And they are constantly improving these mods of transit, the
- current being more sound than it's predicessor.
Where you cannot get supporting evidence yourself, you can look around for alternative sources of information. One scientist might be mistaken. Maybe two or three to could get together and conspire to fake some data. But when there are thousands of researchers working independently -- you can't have a conspiracy that large without being found out.
- But a thousand different researchers could have a thousand
- different results, all based on one assumption and all
- conflicting with the others theories
And you can even remain a Christian. There are many Christian scientists. You have already recognized that the Bible was written by men, even if inspired. They were writing based on the understanding of the world from ancient times. With that in mind, you can reach an understanding of the Bible that is consistent with science.
- ok, i'll buy that one(to prove my point) because i personally
- like that very much, but i don't currently have one. but i can
- imagine that it would be harder to find than a solution to the
- quantum gravity solution of the GUT theories

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by nwr, posted 09-14-2005 10:33 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by nwr, posted 09-14-2005 11:24 PM Aztraph has replied

Aztraph
Member (Idle past 6198 days)
Posts: 53
From: Seymour, Indiana, United States
Joined: 07-25-2005


Message 10 of 302 (243598)
09-14-2005 11:38 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by nwr
09-14-2005 11:24 PM


But that isn't what happens. Science seems to get good consistent answers, and where mistakes are made, they are corrected with further research.
That is a VERY good point. Thankyou, i stand corrected.

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Aztraph
Member (Idle past 6198 days)
Posts: 53
From: Seymour, Indiana, United States
Joined: 07-25-2005


Message 11 of 302 (243599)
09-14-2005 11:41 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by crashfrog
09-14-2005 10:55 PM


So you have your choice. Which do you prefer? Tentative rightness, or absolute belief in what cannot be verified? Heck, you can even pick and choose. Take scientific evidence for what you believe can be verified and absolute faith in what you believe cannot. Plenty of people do it that way, too. I don't, personally.
Very clarifying, i appreciate that. i guess i've gotten tired of thinking so hard on the problem, this gives me a little perspective. I'm curious, where do you stand on the EvC thing? whats your take?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by crashfrog, posted 09-14-2005 10:55 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-15-2005 1:54 AM Aztraph has not replied
 Message 20 by crashfrog, posted 09-15-2005 7:21 AM Aztraph has not replied

Aztraph
Member (Idle past 6198 days)
Posts: 53
From: Seymour, Indiana, United States
Joined: 07-25-2005


Message 46 of 302 (243927)
09-15-2005 8:03 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by TheLiteralist
09-15-2005 2:00 AM


Re: no subject -- just some rambling- yup
The Literalist writes:
Do you have any underlying motives for wishing to give up faith in the Bible (i.e., you'd really like to break some of its rules and not feel guilty about it)? Or, are you truly on search for truth?
I want to know the truth, I try to avoid breaking the rules if I know about them, i'm not looking for justification.
What on earth does the Catholic Church have to do with the history of the Bible? The Catholic Church didn't even exist until two or three centuries after ALL the books of the Bible had been written.
I was wondering, who cut the Bible down to 66 books, who decided what to keep in anad what to leave out, a group of men. and by the way, the roman catholic church DID discourage reading the bible, they wanted folks to come to church for that.
This message has been edited by AdminPhat, 09-16-2005 12:51 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by TheLiteralist, posted 09-15-2005 2:00 AM TheLiteralist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by TheLiteralist, posted 09-15-2005 11:47 PM Aztraph has replied

Aztraph
Member (Idle past 6198 days)
Posts: 53
From: Seymour, Indiana, United States
Joined: 07-25-2005


Message 47 of 302 (243928)
09-15-2005 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by TheLiteralist
09-15-2005 2:05 AM


Re: also...
Also, out of curiousity, are there any particular parts of the Bible that are causing you particular difficulty? (If you don't mind sharing such issues on the board)
Creation happened, but how did it happen? the bible tells us one thing but all observable evidence points to something else. Why did God do that? or was it man that did that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by TheLiteralist, posted 09-15-2005 2:05 AM TheLiteralist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by TheLiteralist, posted 09-16-2005 12:13 AM Aztraph has not replied

Aztraph
Member (Idle past 6198 days)
Posts: 53
From: Seymour, Indiana, United States
Joined: 07-25-2005


Message 48 of 302 (243929)
09-15-2005 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by New Cat's Eye
09-15-2005 2:48 AM


Re: no subject -- just some rambling
I'm guessing eternal salvation.
but you don't believe God is capable of keeping His word free from corruption.
For me, there's no doubting that god isn't capable of keeping his word free from corruption, its just that he is so removed from our everyday lives that he allows corruption.
I must dissagree, God IS capable, but in my opinion, man doesn't have the word of God in his posession to begin with.

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 Message 18 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-15-2005 2:48 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by TheLiteralist, posted 09-15-2005 11:27 PM Aztraph has replied

Aztraph
Member (Idle past 6198 days)
Posts: 53
From: Seymour, Indiana, United States
Joined: 07-25-2005


Message 49 of 302 (243937)
09-15-2005 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by iano
09-15-2005 7:22 AM


Thankyou for that iano, for me, knowing and understanding the truth includes the answer to the question: What's my place in it? I will probably forever be asking the questions, for when i die, i won't have to.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by iano, posted 09-15-2005 7:22 AM iano has not replied

Aztraph
Member (Idle past 6198 days)
Posts: 53
From: Seymour, Indiana, United States
Joined: 07-25-2005


Message 50 of 302 (243938)
09-15-2005 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by PaulK
09-15-2005 8:25 AM


But when you try to make a pagan holiday important by attaching Christian values to it, that kinda seems just wrong. and also cheapens the reason for the holiday in the first place; i.e. the birth of Christ and his resurection should be celebrated continuously, not just a few times a year or once a week at church.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by PaulK, posted 09-15-2005 8:25 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by PaulK, posted 09-16-2005 3:02 AM Aztraph has replied

Aztraph
Member (Idle past 6198 days)
Posts: 53
From: Seymour, Indiana, United States
Joined: 07-25-2005


Message 51 of 302 (243939)
09-15-2005 8:38 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Phat
09-15-2005 8:47 AM


Re: Crisis? What crisis!
I know God, at least what He means to me. It's Love. Pure Love. it may even sound cliche, God IS Love. In fact I think thats the part that crosses the boundries of the denominations, possibly several other different religions even.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by bkelly, posted 09-24-2005 9:17 PM Aztraph has replied

Aztraph
Member (Idle past 6198 days)
Posts: 53
From: Seymour, Indiana, United States
Joined: 07-25-2005


Message 52 of 302 (243945)
09-15-2005 8:54 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by purpledawn
09-15-2005 9:42 AM


Re: Truth
I suppose it's fair to ask, Is THIS all there is? or IS there a Reason for it?
Do you have an answer for these?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by purpledawn, posted 09-15-2005 9:42 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by purpledawn, posted 09-15-2005 9:11 PM Aztraph has replied

Aztraph
Member (Idle past 6198 days)
Posts: 53
From: Seymour, Indiana, United States
Joined: 07-25-2005


Message 54 of 302 (243947)
09-15-2005 9:13 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Rahvin
09-15-2005 1:01 PM


I started distrusting the Bible when i learned of the speed of light and the time it takes light from other galaxies to reach us, indicating the universe is older than what the bible says. And granted God can make the universe that way, but why confuse the issue.
I started questioning science (physics specificaly) when i started learning (not understanding) string theory, a particle of energy that cannot be proven, but fits mathematically. and interestingly enough, because of the inability to prove it's exhistence, String theory is just as philosophical as the belief in the spiritual.
Ironic?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Rahvin, posted 09-15-2005 1:01 PM Rahvin has replied

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 Message 87 by Rahvin, posted 09-16-2005 11:33 AM Aztraph has replied

Aztraph
Member (Idle past 6198 days)
Posts: 53
From: Seymour, Indiana, United States
Joined: 07-25-2005


Message 56 of 302 (243951)
09-15-2005 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by purpledawn
09-15-2005 9:11 PM


Re: Truth
Is there life after we leave this world? Life, the exhistence in general, the BIG question, WHY ARE WE HERE? and WHAT IS OUR PURPOSE IN LIFE? or is there one?
and please don't say 42
This message has been edited by Aztraph, 09-15-2005 09:34 PM

This message is a reply to:
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 Message 83 by nator, posted 09-16-2005 7:57 AM Aztraph has replied
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