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Author Topic:   Department Of Homeland Security Inaction At the Top
gene90
Member (Idle past 3822 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 226 of 297 (243630)
09-15-2005 12:27 AM
Reply to: Message 224 by arachnophilia
09-15-2005 12:23 AM


Re: double standards abound!
quote:
i think you answer your own question:
Yeah, that about does it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by arachnophilia, posted 09-15-2005 12:23 AM arachnophilia has not replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 227 of 297 (243631)
09-15-2005 12:29 AM
Reply to: Message 222 by gene90
09-15-2005 12:09 AM


Re: Hounds are on the hunt.
That's fair, but I think it applies to local, State, and Federal agencies.
uh, no. it doesn't.
fema did not follow the official plan, and dhs fumbled the bit that would have allowed fema to act. apparently, chertoff thought he had to specifically declare nola to be an "incident of national significance" which he waited several days to do -- not allowing fema to even come into play.
he failed to realize however that although not all "incidents of national significance" are national disasters, all national disasters are automatically incidents.
in other words, chertoff got in the way of fema acting, when they REALLY had authority to act from the 27th or so. basically, that's the reason for the slow response --
-- chertoff followed the plan, but not in a timely manner, and in a short-sighted kind of way. the plan itself was not the flaw here.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by gene90, posted 09-15-2005 12:09 AM gene90 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by gene90, posted 09-15-2005 12:31 AM arachnophilia has replied

gene90
Member (Idle past 3822 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 228 of 297 (243632)
09-15-2005 12:31 AM
Reply to: Message 227 by arachnophilia
09-15-2005 12:29 AM


Re: Hounds are on the hunt.
quote:
fema did not follow the official plan, and dhs fumbled the bit that would have allowed fema to act. apparently, chertoff thought he had to specifically declare nola to be an "incident of national significance" which he waited several days to do -- not allowing fema to even come into play.
Well, for that much there needs a be culling of FEMA leadership.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by arachnophilia, posted 09-15-2005 12:29 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by arachnophilia, posted 09-15-2005 12:38 AM gene90 has not replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 229 of 297 (243633)
09-15-2005 12:32 AM
Reply to: Message 225 by gene90
09-15-2005 12:26 AM


uh oh, we're starting to agree
Right.
I may be on the other side of the political spectrum but I agree that there are some problems here. There needs a bipartisan investigation of this for one.
amen.
I don't even like the look of the President being in complete control of whatever inquiry there is going to be.
truthfully, i don't like the look of the president being in complete control of ANYTHING. no matter who the president is, too. this is not an anti-bush thing. frankly, the ability of the president to completely control things locally in the event of a disaster scares me, but i regocnize that swift order is needed in certain circumstances.
the problem here is that swift order did not come.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by gene90, posted 09-15-2005 12:26 AM gene90 has not replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 230 of 297 (243636)
09-15-2005 12:38 AM
Reply to: Message 228 by gene90
09-15-2005 12:31 AM


Re: Hounds are on the hunt.
Well, for that much there needs a be culling of FEMA leadership.
yes. at least brown is gone. imho, i think he should have actually been fired, at the very least. so should a few other from their ranks, especially those with little to no qualifications.
also, i think chertoff from dhs needs to go, and we need to seriously investigate them too.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by gene90, posted 09-15-2005 12:31 AM gene90 has not replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 231 of 297 (243681)
09-15-2005 3:56 AM


fema and dhs snafu, continued.
here's some more info i've been finding:
quote:
The rescue pumped up the spirits of Task Force 5, which has been mostly marking the locations of bodies for the last week. Earlier, they had been frustrated when FEMA delayed their deployment for four days, housing them in the Hyatt Regency in Dallas.
They were frustrated further when they were given the FEMA order that they weren't allowed to force their way into houses to search them. They hope Hollingsworth's rescue will coax FEMA to rethink its directive.
http://www.pnionline.com/...og/attytood/archives/002362.html
and for all those whining about blanco not asking for help, even though she did:
quote:
Even before the storm struck the Gulf Coast, Chertoff could have ordered federal agencies into action without any request from state or local officials.
Domain Names, Web Hosting and Online Marketing Services | Network Solutions
apparently she didn't need to, like i said. as i pointed out before, chertoff didn't declare an incident of national significance until the 30th, even though the presidential declaration of disaster had already happened on the 27th, prior to the hurricane, totally eliminating the need for chertoff's memo.
there appear to be some pretty nasty kinks in the chain of command here, and chertoff is one of them.

אָרַח

Peal
Member (Idle past 4698 days)
Posts: 64
Joined: 03-11-2004


Message 232 of 297 (243827)
09-15-2005 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by gene90
09-14-2005 10:36 AM


Re: Hounds are on the hunt.
Gene
are you saying that this is all that Blanco asked for in her letter to Bush.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Blanco asks for federal help 2 day before landfall
"Pursuant to 44 CFR 206.35, I have determined that this incident is of such severity and magnitude that effective response is beyond the capabilities of the State and affected local governments, and that supplementary Federal assistance is necessary to save lives, protect property, public health, and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat of a disaster. I am specifically requesting emergency protective measures, direct Federal Assistance, Individual and Household Program (IHP) assistance, Special Needs Program assistance, and debris removal."
404
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Did you not read the entire letter?
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ENCLOSURE A TO EMERGENCY REQUEST
Estimated requirements for other Federal agency programs:
” Department of Social Services (DSS): Opening (3) Special Need Shelters (SNS) and establishing (3) on Standby. Costs estimated at $500,000 per week for each in operation.
” Department of Health and Hospitals (DHH): Opening (3) Shelters and establishing (3) on Standby. Costs estimated at $500,000 per week for each in operation.
” Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness (OHSEP): Providing generators and support staff for SNS and Public Shelters. Costs estimated to range from $250,000-$500,000 to support (6) Shelter generator operations.
” Louisiana State Police (LSP): Costs to support evacuations - $300,000 for a non-direct landfall.
” Louisiana Department of Wildlife and Fisheries (WLF): Costs to support evacuations - $200,000 for a non-direct landfall.
” Louisiana Department of Transportation and Development (DOTD): Costs to support evacuations - $2,000,000 for a non-direct landfall.
Totals: $ 9,000,000
Estimated Requirements for assistance under the Stafford Act:
Coordination: $0
Technical and advisory assistance: $0
Debris removal: $0
Emergency protective measures: $ 9,000,000
Individuals and Households Program (IHP): $0
Distribution of emergency supplies: $0
Other (specify): $0
Totals: $ 9,000,000
Grand Total: $ 9,000,000
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That's the total that Blanco is asking for. $9 million dollars.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by gene90, posted 09-14-2005 10:36 AM gene90 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by gene90, posted 09-15-2005 1:19 PM Peal has replied

gene90
Member (Idle past 3822 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 233 of 297 (243848)
09-15-2005 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by Peal
09-15-2005 12:00 PM


Re: Hounds are on the hunt.
quote:
Gene
are you saying that this is all that Blanco asked for in her letter to Bush.
Well, I don't see the point of arguing what the letter says when the letter is right here:
404
quote:
Pursuant to 44 CFR 206.35, I have determined that this incident is of such severity and magnitude that effective response is beyond the capabilities of the State and affected local governments, and that supplementary Federal assistance is necessary to save lives, protect property, public health, and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat of a disaster. I am specifically requesting emergency protective measures, direct Federal Assistance, Individual and Household Program (IHP) assistance, Special Needs Program assistance, and debris removal.
Right, she is asking for "protective measures" and "direct Federal assistance".
Next paragraph:
quote:
Preliminary estimates of the types and amount of emergency assistance needed under the Stafford Act, and emergency assistance from certain Federal agencies under other statutory authorities are tabulated in Enclosure A.
Enclosure A:
quote:
Estimated requirements for other Federal agency programs:
” Department of Social Services (DSS): Opening (3) Special Need Shelters (SNS) and establishing (3) on Standby. Costs estimated at $500,000 per week for each in operation.
” Department of Health and Hospitals (DHH): Opening (3) Shelters and establishing (3) on Standby. Costs estimated at $500,000 per week for each in operation.
” Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness (OHSEP): Providing generators and support staff for SNS and Public Shelters. Costs estimated to range from $250,000-$500,000 to support (6) Shelter generator operations.
” Louisiana State Police (LSP): Costs to support evacuations - $300,000 for a non-direct landfall.
” Louisiana Department of Wildlife and Fisheries (WLF): Costs to support evacuations - $200,000 for a non-direct landfall.
” Louisiana Department of Transportation and Development (DOTD): Costs to support evacuations - $2,000,000 for a non-direct landfall.
Totals: $ 9,000,000
Estimated Requirements for assistance under the Stafford Act:
Coordination: $0
Technical and advisory assistance: $0
Debris removal: $0
Emergency protective measures: $ 9,000,000
Individuals and Households Program (IHP): $0
Distribution of emergency supplies: $0
Other (specify): $0
Totals: $ 9,000,000
Grand Total: $ 9,000,000
Now, to be fair, Katrina was a Category 3 hurricane when she wrote this, and the lanfall location was not known with any certainty.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by Peal, posted 09-15-2005 12:00 PM Peal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by Peal, posted 09-15-2005 1:41 PM gene90 has replied

Peal
Member (Idle past 4698 days)
Posts: 64
Joined: 03-11-2004


Message 234 of 297 (243856)
09-15-2005 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by gene90
09-15-2005 1:19 PM


Re: Hounds are on the hunt.
Gene
"supplementary Federal assistance is necessary to save lives, protect property, public health, and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat of a disaster. I am specifically requesting emergency protective measures, direct Federal Assistance,"
Does this part of the letter, "supplementary federal assistance", refer to FEMA in your opinion?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by gene90, posted 09-15-2005 1:19 PM gene90 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by gene90, posted 09-15-2005 1:44 PM Peal has replied

gene90
Member (Idle past 3822 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 235 of 297 (243858)
09-15-2005 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by Peal
09-15-2005 1:41 PM


Re: Hounds are on the hunt.
quote:
Does this part of the letter, "supplementary federal assistance", refer to FEMA in your opinion?
Yes, about nine million dollar's worth, presumably in addition to the FEMA resources that were already on their way.
quote:
The following information is furnished on efforts and resources of other Federal agencies, which have been or will be used in responding to this incident:
” FEMA ERT-A Team en-route.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by Peal, posted 09-15-2005 1:41 PM Peal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by Peal, posted 09-15-2005 1:51 PM gene90 has replied

Peal
Member (Idle past 4698 days)
Posts: 64
Joined: 03-11-2004


Message 236 of 297 (243859)
09-15-2005 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by gene90
09-15-2005 1:44 PM


Re: Hounds are on the hunt.
So was FEMA involved on the 27?
Grammer edit!
This message has been edited by Peal, 09-15-2005 01:54 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by gene90, posted 09-15-2005 1:44 PM gene90 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by gene90, posted 09-15-2005 1:55 PM Peal has replied

gene90
Member (Idle past 3822 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 237 of 297 (243863)
09-15-2005 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 236 by Peal
09-15-2005 1:51 PM


Re: Hounds are on the hunt.
quote:
So was FEMA got involved on the 27?
The letter said that there was a "FEMA ERT-A team enroute".
On the 27th, however, Katrina was a category 3 hurricane that would make landfall somewhere between Louisiana and Alabama, and New Orleans was dry.
Are you suggesting that we should send the 82nd Airborne into New Orleans every time there's a hurricane in the Gulf? Have you paid attention to how many false alarms like that there are every year?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by Peal, posted 09-15-2005 1:51 PM Peal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by Peal, posted 09-15-2005 1:59 PM gene90 has replied

Peal
Member (Idle past 4698 days)
Posts: 64
Joined: 03-11-2004


Message 238 of 297 (243865)
09-15-2005 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by gene90
09-15-2005 1:55 PM


Re: Hounds are on the hunt.
Wait Gene, don't draw your pistol yet.
On the 27th, however, Katrina was a category 3 hurricane that would make landfall somewhere between Louisiana and Alabama, and New Orleans was dry.
Timeline of Hurricane Katrina - Wikipedia
This says it was going into New Orleans
Saturday, August 27
Katrina is upgraded to a Category 3 hurricane.
New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin calls for a voluntary evacuation of the city. The emergency plans rely on citizens to bring their own 3-day supply of food and water to the Superdome and Convention Center. Current Louisiana Emergency Evacuation guidelines allow use of public school buses [2]. It is currently disputed whether or not they were used to transport the poor to the superdome. [3]
National Hurricane Director Max Mayfield and President Bush call on Mayor Nagin to declare a mandatory evacuation. [4] and [5]
Governor Blanco requests that President Bush declare a major disaster for the State of Louisiana in a letter through FEMA Region VI Director [6] Gary Jones [7]. In the 4-page letter, she makes specific requests under the Stafford Act for aid (housing, counseling, unemployment, and Small business funding) as well as requesting "direct Federal assistance for work and services to save lives and protect property" (by removing debris) and agrees to reduced liability but does not request federal troops to be deployed in the state until August 31.[8] Note, Blanco's letter was published on 27 August 2005 on Lexis Nexis but was dated 28 August 2005. Bush received the letter on Saturday and responded on that same day -- see [9].
In response to Governor Blanco's request, President Bush declares a Federal state of emergency in Louisiana under the authority of the Stafford Act [10]. The emergency declaration provides for federal assistance and funding [11] and assigns to FEMA, by law, the responsibility for coordinating relief efforts [12]. The declaration [13] does not cover the parishes expected to receive the most damage, like Jefferson Parish and New Orleans (Orleans Parish). This was a bizarre "twist" since Governor Blanco specifically mentioned all the Southeast Louisiana Parishes by name in her in her request to President Bush. See[14]A map of the very peculiar Federal declaration of emergency parishes is provided by Bob Harris here: Page not found – { bobharris.com }

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by gene90, posted 09-15-2005 1:55 PM gene90 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by gene90, posted 09-15-2005 2:03 PM Peal has replied

gene90
Member (Idle past 3822 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 239 of 297 (243866)
09-15-2005 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by Peal
09-15-2005 1:59 PM


Re: Hounds are on the hunt.
quote:
This says it was going into New Orleans
You can't forecast a hurricane with that kind of confidence 48 hours in advance. I know this from personal experience from trying to be in the paths of hurricanes.
A corollary is that it's very difficult to anticipate the strength of a hurricane prior to landfall.
National Hurricane Center Advisories > Wikipedia
This is from the 1 PM Advisory on 27 Aug
quote:
...CATEGORY THREE KATRINA MOVING WESTWARD IN THE SOUTHEASTERN GULF
OF MEXICO...LITTLE CHANGE IN STRENGTH THE PAST FEW HOURS...
A HURRICANE WATCH REMAINS IN EFFECT FOR THE SOUTHEASTERN COAST OF
LOUISIANA EAST OF MORGAN CITY TO THE MOUTH OF THE PEARL RIVER...
INCLUDING METROPOLITAN NEW ORLEANS AND LAKE PONCHARTRAIN. A
HURRICANE WATCH MEANS THAT HURRICANE CONDITIONS ARE POSSIBLE WITHIN
THE WATCH AREA...GENERALLY WITHIN 36 HOURS.
A HURRICANE WATCH WILL LIKELY BE REQUIRED FOR OTHER PORTIONS OF THE
NORTHERN GULF COAST LATER TODAY OR TONIGHT. INTERESTS IN THIS AREA
SHOULD MONITOR THE PROGRESS OF KATRINA.
A TROPICAL STORM WARNING REMAINS IN EFFECT WEST OF KEY WEST TO THE
DRY TORTUGAS.
Forgive the caps and the awkward pauses, that's National Weather Service format.
This message has been edited by gene90, 09-15-2005 02:18 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by Peal, posted 09-15-2005 1:59 PM Peal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by Peal, posted 09-15-2005 2:19 PM gene90 has replied

Peal
Member (Idle past 4698 days)
Posts: 64
Joined: 03-11-2004


Message 240 of 297 (243868)
09-15-2005 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 239 by gene90
09-15-2005 2:03 PM


Re: Hounds are on the hunt.
This says Kitrina could become a Category 4
She had to make a decision based on someones prediction.
Hurricane KATRINA?
AT 10 AM CDT...1500Z...A HURRICANE WATCH IS IN EFFECT FOR THE
SOUTHEASTERN COAST OF LOUISIANA EAST OF MORGAN CITY TO THE MOUTH OF
THE PEARL RIVER...INCLUDING METROPOLITAN NEW ORLEANS AND LAKE
PONCHARTRAIN. A HURRICANE WATCH MEANS THAT HURRICANE CONDITIONS
ARE POSSIBLE WITHIN THE WATCH AREA...GENERALLY WITHIN 36 HOURS.
KATRINA IS MOVING TOWARD THE WEST NEAR 7 MPH...11 KM/HR. A GRADUAL
TURN TOWARD THE WEST-NORTHWEST IS EXPECTED DURING THE NEXT 24
HOURS.
MAXIMUM SUSTAINED WINDS ARE NEAR 115 MPH...185 KM/HR...WITH HIGHER
GUSTS. KATRINA IS A CATEGORY THREE HURRICANE ON THE SAFFIR-SIMPSON
SCALE. SOME STRENGTHENING IS FORECAST DURING THE NEXT 24 HOURS...
AND KATRINA COULD BECOME A CATEGORY FOUR HURRICANE.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by gene90, posted 09-15-2005 2:03 PM gene90 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 241 by Peal, posted 09-15-2005 2:20 PM Peal has not replied
 Message 243 by gene90, posted 09-15-2005 2:32 PM Peal has replied

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