Why must we believe *before* we die?

You did a good job with this from a believer's point of view. Yes, true. But this isn't true at all according to Reformation Protestantism. God has mercy upon "whomever He will have mercy" and reveals Himself to whomever He will. There are some great sinners among God's chosen. Consider King David. Not sure how you get this out of that passage. Please tell me where you get this idea. Scripture says "no one is good, no not one." Faith isn't given to us because we are good at all. Far from it. It's given to people who know they are transgressors of God's law, some very serious transgressors. Nor are people who have faith good in themselves --according to Protestantism anyway. They are only good through Jesus' goodness, not their own.

Yes, when I asked I thought maybe that was a Catholic viewpoint.Yes, about Peter's pure heart, David the sinner also had a pure heart, honest before God, and that is to his credit. Protestant theology -- actually, also Catholic theology as I recall from some of the mystics -- ascribes ALL goodness, even of this sort, to God's own gift, and not to the person. But that may be a fine point.

Yes, you are being more precise, but I'm not sure the distinction is crucial, as Jesus speaks of people (not) BEING good as opposed to DOING good in a way that makes the two almost synonymous:Matthew 19:17 And he said to him, Why do you call me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if you will enter into life, keep the commandments.This message has been edited by Faith, 09-17-2005 09:46 AM

There are righteous people in the Bible, but it seems to say that overall human beings aren't good. Even putting it in terms of DOING good, it amounts to the same thing as it says NO ONE does good, no not one. That's pretty absolute.But maybe I've lost track of your point.

Well, I'm a Calvinist, Total Depravity and all that, which *is* derived from the overall teachings of the Bible, but of course you may disagree.

I could never see the point of being a drop in the ocean either. What motivates the Buddhists anyway?However, God is completely and fully present at every point, and can be completely and fully embraced by anyone who truly seeks Him. Now to my mind that is worth it. Even worth all the work it requires. Even worth dying to self for.

I think I fell into Christian jargon there. Lost the theme of the conversation even in the effort to stay with the theme. Although it may be getting off topic, I guess I should at least say that dying to self is not the same as losing one's identity, as I now realize that is what you were talking about. It's shorthand for Jesus' sayings:Mat 10:38 And he that takes not his cross, and follows after me, is not worthy of me. Mat 10:39 He that finds his life shall lose it: and he that loses his life for my sake shall find it. Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Funny that I have salvation then, considering that I'm not a good person.

But nothing qualifies me for salvation except being a sinner, which is the lot of us all, according to the Protestant theology I believe. And there is nobody who doesn't "qualify" except those who hate God and refuse His call and that is their own doing, as ALL are invited. "Whosoever believeth on Him" are the saved. Whosoever. That is true, but nobody deserves it, we're all equally sinners when we're called. He simply chooses whomever He chooses, and nobody knows who that is. He calls all and you have as much opportunity to respond as anybody else has.

But God is in the business of changing us. We don't start out loving Him or seeking Him. Yes, He values goodness supremely, that's why He intends to change those who respond to the call to fit us for His company.Yes, there's some fancy theology involved in all this, but I think it's best to keep it simple. He has called. If you have the slightest interest you can say yes and everything starts at that point. Everything else is a bit academic.

OK, yes, only good people go to heaven. As long as it's clear that nobody qualifies without God's grace. Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

It was a comment on how anyone can desire to lose one's identity as a drop in the ocean, not on the moral precepts and practice of Buddhism. And what is it that motivates a person to lose his identity by merging into it? Are you following the discussion here? Love God. Be immensely happy.This message has been edited by Faith, 09-30-2005 06:59 AMThis message has been edited by Faith, 09-30-2005 07:01 AM

Trying to figure out what you mean here. I think there's a confusion between different senses of some words, but I'm not sure.Both a self and not a self? No-one loses his personal identity in Heaven. The "self" that we "lose" in the Christian life is the fallen nature, the selfish self, to become like Christ who gave Himself for others. While we're here most of us don't get very close to that state of perfection."God is both all-powerful and all-good and yet contains or creates or permits evil." In English, especially King James English, there is "evil" in the sense of moral wrong or sin, and there is "evil" in the sense of misfortune or calamity. God cannot commit the first but permits it in his sentient creatures. {Edit: And the idea is that this will ultimately lead to a higher good.} The second kind of evil, or calamity, is the moral consequence of the first. There is no paradox or contradiction."people are both free and pre-destined" Yes, this can be a hard one for us, but I think it's somewhat resolved if you understand that from OUR point of view we are free to choose, while from God's point of view we are pre-destined to salvation or not, and this is proved by our choosing it or not."what God says is good is good and yet God also obeys some higher laws of goodness" I don't understand this. God IS all the laws of goodness. He doesn't "obey" anything except in the sense that He can't contradict Himself.God's nature is beyond us. Why should we be able to understand the Being who made everything including ourselves?This message has been edited by Faith, 09-30-2005 07:35 AM

Does anyone truly seek self-annihilation? Isn't that just contrary to the way we are made? Of course there are suicides but that's not exactly a positive motivation.I get very tired of myself in the sense that I want to change many things about myself, but total annihilation is not something I can imagine desiring. Can you really?

But Jesus was claiming to be God when He said this. Being sinless IS being good. Jesus was good. Jesus is God.