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Member (Idle past 2518 days) Posts: 2965 From: Los Angeles, CA USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Intelligent Design and Bible Codes | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Nuggin Member (Idle past 2518 days) Posts: 2965 From: Los Angeles, CA USA Joined: |
You all know me, but I want to put my biases up front just in case it's a new reader.
I don't believe in Intelligent Design. I am an abiogenesis ToEr supporter. I don't believe that there is a supernatural being holding court over the universe. Having said that, I recently saw a special on the "Bible Codes". For those who don't know what this is, the Bible Codes are a collection of hidden messages found within the ancient Hebrew texts. Basically they take all the words/letters of the text and make giant grids out of them. Then, in sort of a word search fashion look for predictions. Apparently Lincoln's assassination, Rabin's assassination, etc. have been found. I'm wondering if Intelligent Design supporters believe in the Bible Code. Here's why I ask: The Bible Code takes a collection of "random information", looks for patterns within it, then proclaims what it finds to be proof that the information was not random to begin with. This strikes me as being very much what the IDers are doing. They look at complex things which exist today (at the end of the process) and deduce that therefore someone must have set out to achieve them. It's backwards reasoning. Neither of these theories describe mechanics, they simply imply them by looking at results. In striking opposite sits ToE which describes mechanics and implies results. (There is an elephant therefore there is an Intelligent Designer vs. There is Natural Selection and, hey whatya know, an Elephant) In the Bible Code, no attention is paid to the 99.99 percent of letter/word combinations that don't result in any sort of meaningful sentence, let alone prediction. Further, the same process of gridding out a text and doing a word search on "Moby Dick" turns up hundreds of predictions as well. If the Bible Codes are holy, then doesn't that imply that the Moby Dick codes are likewise holy? Patterns appear when you look for them. We, as a species, are good at finding patterns and discarding background noise. Do IDers feel that Bible Code is a mathmatical trick, or proof that their is a God pre-ordaining our entire existance? If you don't believe in Bible Code, which uses the same top down principles of results proves means that ID uses, then how do you reconcile that? This message has been edited by Nuggin, 09-17-2005 07:05 PM
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AdminBen Inactive Member |
Hi Nuggin,
I'm having a little trouble connecting the dots in your post. Let me run a simple query by you:
Do IDers feel that Bible Code is pattern or mathmatical trick? If trick, then how do you reconcile that belief with the same methodology used to support ID? It would be really helpful for me, in understanding your post, if you could outline what methodology is being used to support ID. Can you add that in? More specifically, I'm unclear on how ID methodology is different than that used in hypothesis-building in say, abiogenesis or cosmology. Why is this a special problem for ID proponents and not scientists in general? If you could address those issues in your post, that would really help me see how well the discussion will get of the ground. That really helps when considering a topic for promotion. Thanks as always. Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
General discussion of moderation procedures Thread Reopen Requests Considerations of topic promotions from the "Proposed New Topics" forum New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts. Other useful links:
Forum Guidelines, Style Guides for EvC and Assistance w/ Forum Formatting
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Nuggin Member (Idle past 2518 days) Posts: 2965 From: Los Angeles, CA USA Joined: |
Right-o! Check for an edit in a bit.
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AdminBen Inactive Member |
Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
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ausar_maat Member (Idle past 5524 days) Posts: 136 From: Toronto Joined: |
quote: I'm not familiar with ID, just bought the Micheal Behe book. But that's a very good point.
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AdminBen Inactive Member |
ausar_maat,
From what I saw last night (and now), looks like you're clicking "reply" to random post, including your own, when posting. Clicking "reply" on the post that you're actually replying to is important because:
Can you try and click the little "reply" button from each post that you reply to? It will make everything a lot easier for everybody else in the end. Thanks. Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
General discussion of moderation procedures Thread Reopen Requests Considerations of topic promotions from the "Proposed New Topics" forum New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts. Other useful links:
Forum Guidelines, Style Guides for EvC and Assistance w/ Forum Formatting
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ausar_maat Member (Idle past 5524 days) Posts: 136 From: Toronto Joined: |
little newbie error there sorry
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AdminBen Inactive Member |
No problem at all. Figured that's all it was. Hope you're enjoying the board, and welcome to EvC!
Below are some links that may come in useful during your stay at EvC. When you have a moment, take a look at some of them. You'll find them linked in most admin's signatures. Thanks. Abe: posted in "regular mode" This message has been edited by AdminBen, Saturday, 2005/10/08 06:49 AM Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
General discussion of moderation procedures Thread Reopen Requests Considerations of topic promotions from the "Proposed New Topics" forum New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts. Other useful links:
Forum Guidelines, Style Guides for EvC and Assistance w/ Forum Formatting
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ramoss Member (Idle past 637 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
I happened to disagree with both.. but I see that in both ID and in the bible codes , you do see the HUMAN desire to see patterns. Anytime someone finds a "prediction" in the bible codes, it is always after the fact, and retrofitting it into place.. any book of significent size you can do the same thing. People have done it with the old testament, the new testament, the koran, and Gone with the Wind.
Now, if someone was able to give me a prediction from an event that has not happened eyt, and was signifigent accurate, and came to pass , I would be more impressed. It hasn't, of course.
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joshua221  Inactive Member |
I don't like your style very much, you try to set someone up with your opening posts, and when someone (usually new here, or new in general to debate) says something in accordance to what you ask, you pounce on them. It's really not right. You have also pretended to believe that the earth was flat, that wasn't as funny as you may have thought it to have been, especially as it was an insult to some Christians on the forum. I don't see how you learn with this process, why do you do it? To increase your "reputation" as a good poster? I dunno, it seems like your a little out of control in the fashion of your OP's. Maybe it's just me.
I am smiling.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1492 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
I dunno, it seems like your a little out of control in the fashion of your OP's. Maybe it's just me. I think it's just you. I think it's a great OP, and it really gets right to the heart of the matter - why is it that, when the same act of "intelligence detection" ID proponents use to justify their ideas is applied to other fields, they dismiss it? Another way to phrase the question: what basis is there for rejecting the "Bible Code" phenomenon as an intelligent signal that doesn't also apply to the detection of intelligent signals in biology?
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coffee_addict Member (Idle past 502 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: |
It's not his fault some people just don't have that great of a reading comprehension score.
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Yaro Member (Idle past 6521 days) Posts: 1797 Joined: |
...just bought the Micheal Behe book Careful with that one ausar, be advised that Behe's ID has been thuroughly debunked.
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Nuggin Member (Idle past 2518 days) Posts: 2965 From: Los Angeles, CA USA Joined: |
Well Prophex I have to say I'm confused by this very personal and complete out of left field attack on me as a poster.
I don't like your style very much, you try to set someone up with your opening posts, and when someone (usually new here, or new in general to debate) says something in accordance to what you ask, you pounce on them. How am I "setting someone up" here? I went out of my way to put my views in the first few sentences. Something that I haven't seen on any other threads. Further, in what way am I "pouncing" on them. I am asking a question. If you choose to answer it, answer it. I don't have any special argument up my sleeve. In fact, I spell out my entire argument in my OP.
You have also pretended to believe that the earth was flat, that wasn't as funny as you may have thought it to have been, especially as it was an insult to some Christians on the forum. How would my beliefs in a flat earth be insulting to Christians? Care to explain that one to me?
I don't see how you learn with this process, why do you do it? To increase your "reputation" as a good poster? Is there some poster reputation ratings guide that I'm unaware of? I understood it to be pretty much take it as you see it. Are we voting on most popular poster or something?
it seems like your a little out of control in the fashion of your OP's. Maybe it's just me. Care to give me an example of how my OP here was "out of control"?
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1369 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
biblecodes are pure unadulterated bs.
Torah Codes this is brendan mckay's page. if you saw the special i think you saw, they gave him about 30 seconds -- never mind the fact that he has totally refuted nearly every claim the coders make. i've heard him speak in person, as an invited lecturer at southeastern conference on graph theory, combinatorics and computing. arguments like this one are especially convincing. it's basically another case of "unintelligent design." actual intelligence can make much, much better codes. This message has been edited by arachnophilia, 10-10-2005 05:15 PM
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