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Author Topic:   Why must we believe *before* we die?
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 16 of 302 (244347)
09-17-2005 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Faith
09-17-2005 9:40 AM


Re: Scripture Says
IMO there is a difference between being good and doing good. A bad person can do good things and vice versa.
quote:
Matthew 19:17 And he said to him, Why do you call me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if you will enter into life, keep the commandments.
I know you realize that I can come up with scripture that seems to support that there are good people
Matthew
12:35
"The good man brings out of his good treasure what is good; and the evil man brings out of his evil treasure what is evil.
and you can provide scripture that seems to say otherwise.
Since there are scriptures where God or Jesus describe men as good, then the quote you shared from Matthew 19:17 IMO is more likely an example of Jesus being humble as opposed to an absolute statement that no human is good.

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Faith, posted 09-17-2005 9:40 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Faith, posted 09-17-2005 11:20 AM purpledawn has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 17 of 302 (244361)
09-17-2005 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by purpledawn
09-17-2005 10:34 AM


Re: Scripture Says
IMO there is a difference between being good and doing good. A bad person can do good things and vice versa.
There are righteous people in the Bible, but it seems to say that overall human beings aren't good. Even putting it in terms of DOING good, it amounts to the same thing as it says NO ONE does good, no not one. That's pretty absolute.
But maybe I've lost track of your point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by purpledawn, posted 09-17-2005 10:34 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by purpledawn, posted 09-17-2005 5:13 PM Faith has replied

Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 18 of 302 (244422)
09-17-2005 3:11 PM


Some remarks.
Thank you all for your replies. I am going to lump my reactions to (some of) you together in this one post. Please don't feel ignored if I didn't react to you. I am not intentionally ignoring anybody, it's just that I want this post to stay a bit focused.
jar writes:
She doesn't. It couldn't care less about whether or not you believe.
Jar, apparently your concept of God is different than that of most religious people. But I knew that already from previous posts of yours. As a religious person, you are a-typical, and I appreciate your opinion all the more for it.
[qs=Larni]if you were a priest greedy for converts to fill his coffers or provide man power, then it [convincing people that they must be believers before they die] make[s] perfect sense.[/qs]
That's supposing that the priest in question isn't as gullible as his flock. But what if he is? What makes him preach what he preaches? That's why I mentioned the 'meme' meme. To me, it's a compelling solution to the problem of why religious ideas - which I tend to think of as 'problematic' ideas, in that they can cause a lot of problems, making it not at all obvious that they should be successful - are so enduring. Like a gene wants to be copied just for the sake of it, so does a meme.
Chiroptera writes:
Hey! High stakes testing! We're down with that here in the U.S.
I don't know what you mean, can you explain?
Phatboy writes:
I have personally believed that many people do, in fact, become believers once the choice is clear to them
That would be obvious...
Phatboy writes:
...which for some, happens after the physical death.
... but that would not, to me at least. But it's your opinion, and that's what I asked for. Thanks.
robinrohan writes:
God reveals himself to good people only.
So if God doesn't reveal himself to me, I may draw the conclusion that I am not good?
purpledawn writes:
IMO there is a difference between being good and doing good. A bad person can do good things and vice versa.
But how do you become a bad person per se? I would have thought that your actions (doing good or bad) determine what kind of person you are. So, if a "bad" person does good things, then they are not wholly bad, I would say.

We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. - Richard Dawkins

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by purpledawn, posted 09-17-2005 7:39 PM Parasomnium has not replied
 Message 23 by robinrohan, posted 09-17-2005 8:11 PM Parasomnium has not replied
 Message 24 by mick, posted 09-17-2005 8:48 PM Parasomnium has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 19 of 302 (244432)
09-17-2005 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Faith
09-17-2005 11:20 AM


Re: Scripture Says
When you read the complete songs referenced in Message 14
14:1-7
The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds; There is no one who does good.
The LORD has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men To see if there are any who understand, Who seek after God. They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one.
Do all the workers of wickedness not know, Who eat up my people as they eat bread, And do not call upon the Lord?
There they are in great dread, For God is with the righteous generation.
You would put to shame the counsel of the afflicted, But the LORD is his refuge.
Oh, that the salvation of Israel would come out of Zion! When the LORD restores His captive people, Jacob will rejoice, Israel will be glad.
and how "sons of men" has been used before in the Bible, IMO David is using the term for those who don't serve God and his wicked enemies, not all of mankind.
This is what I was trying to say in Message 14 besides the "does good" refers to their actions and not their nature.
Your flat statement that no one is good is inaccurate and implies that no human is able to have a good nature. IMO the overall teachings in the Bible do not support this thought.

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Faith, posted 09-17-2005 11:20 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Faith, posted 09-17-2005 7:13 PM purpledawn has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 20 of 302 (244447)
09-17-2005 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by purpledawn
09-17-2005 5:13 PM


Re: Scripture Says
Your flat statement that no one is good is inaccurate and implies that no human is able to have a good nature. IMO the overall teachings in the Bible do not support this thought.
Well, I'm a Calvinist, Total Depravity and all that, which *is* derived from the overall teachings of the Bible, but of course you may disagree.

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nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 21 of 302 (244450)
09-17-2005 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Parasomnium
09-16-2005 9:40 AM


Anyone ever seen the film The Rapture?
It has an interesting take on just this issue.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Parasomnium, posted 09-16-2005 9:40 AM Parasomnium has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 22 of 302 (244453)
09-17-2005 7:39 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Parasomnium
09-17-2005 3:11 PM


Re: Some remarks.
quote:
But how do you become a bad person per se?
In relation to what I was discussing it depends on who is judging you. (secular, Christian, Jewish, etc.) From the OT standpoint, not following the God of Abraham and/or his rules.
Ezekiel states:
18:21
"But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
18:24
"But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die.
quote:
I would have thought that your actions (doing good or bad) determine what kind of person you are. So, if a "bad" person does good things, then they are not wholly bad, I would say.
I don't think the Jews thought of people as wholly bad or good. We have a good urge and an evil urge. The trick is to balance them.

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 302 (244472)
09-17-2005 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Parasomnium
09-17-2005 3:11 PM


Re: Some remarks.
So if God doesn't reveal himself to me, I may draw the conclusion that I am not good?
Yes, you may draw that conclusion. You did not make the cut.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Parasomnium, posted 09-17-2005 3:11 PM Parasomnium has not replied

Replies to this message:
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mick
Member (Idle past 4986 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 24 of 302 (244478)
09-17-2005 8:48 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Parasomnium
09-17-2005 3:11 PM


Re: Some remarks.
Hi parasomnium,
I thought your initial question was quite interesting. It seems vindictive, childish and remarkably selfish to require adulation from the little petty creatures one has created (before or after death, to be honest).
My best guess is that people get the God they deserve. Vindictive, childish and selfish people get a vindictive, childish and selfish God.
Jar gets a God specially for himself.
Mick

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Replies to this message:
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mick
Member (Idle past 4986 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 25 of 302 (244481)
09-17-2005 8:54 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by purpledawn
09-17-2005 8:39 AM


Re: Scripture Says
Hi purpledawn,
Your quotation from proverbs
purpledawn writes:
A good man obtaineth favour of the LORD: but a man of wicked devices will he condemn.
reminds me of the thinking of the dappy girl in Kingsley Amis's "Lucky Jim". She says:
quote:
Nice things are a lot nicer than nasty ones

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 26 of 302 (244572)
09-18-2005 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by mick
09-17-2005 8:48 PM


Re: Some remarks.
quote:
My best guess is that people get the God they deserve. Vindictive, childish and selfish people get a vindictive, childish and selfish God.
Jar gets a God specially for himself.
Cool.
I'm going to get a nerdy God.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 27 of 302 (244576)
09-18-2005 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by robinrohan
09-17-2005 8:11 PM


Re: Some remarks.
RR writes:
So if God doesn't reveal himself to me, I may draw the conclusion that I am not good?
*Ahem*...
I believe that God reveals Himself to different people at different times of their lives and in different ways. Just because you have never seen evidence of Him does not mean that you never will.
I believe that we do not "find" God. He finds us. It may happen a number of ways, Robin. If you were on a football team, you may miss the cut, but if you never knew what football even was, how could they cut you? (EvC Forum: A Play:
RR- (As Lt. Dan Taylor) So where in the heck is this "god" of yours?
Phatboy-(As Forrest Gump) And then all of a sudden, God showed up!
AdminJar-(As God) OFF TOPIC! DO NOT RESPOND TO THIS MESSAGE!
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 09-18-2005 07:49 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by robinrohan, posted 09-17-2005 8:11 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 28 of 302 (244579)
09-18-2005 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by mick
09-17-2005 8:48 PM


Re: Some remarks.
Mick writes:
It seems vindictive, childish and remarkably selfish to require adulation from the little petty creatures one has created (before or after death, to be honest).
Which is the better thing to teach your child?
1) You are a little petty creature! Be in awe of this great Universe and strive to understand it a bit more.
2) You are fearfully and wonderfully made. You were foreknown before you were born. Be humble and strive to understand and get to know the One who created you?
In the first case, humans are taught that they are of minor significance and our job in life is to be curious, uncertain, and reverential towards a creatorless "grand design"...a concept of human wisdom BTW (those petty creatures!)
In the second case, a human is taught that they have a purpose and a destiny in life and that we were created..obviously by our parents, but in a grander sense by a Creator whose wisdom will always exceed our own. (which makes us loved and not petty little germs.)
BTW..why is it so irritating that God is selfish?
It's Sinatras world...we just live here!
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 09-18-2005 07:59 AM

This message is a reply to:
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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 302 (244588)
09-18-2005 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Phat
09-18-2005 9:48 AM


Matthew and "evcforum--a play".
I believe that God reveals Himself to different people at different times of their lives and in different ways. Just because you have never seen evidence of Him does not mean that you never will.
Let's go back to the passage from Matthew. Why did God reveal himself to Peter and not the others? My answer was that Peter was pure of heart. How do you interpret that scene?
RE: EVCforum--A Play.
The play has been discontinued because I realized it was rude and insensitive to fellow posters.
This message has been edited by robinrohan, 09-18-2005 09:55 AM

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 302 (244589)
09-18-2005 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by mick
09-17-2005 8:54 PM


Lucky Jim
Nice things are a lot nicer than nasty ones
This is indeed from "Lucky Jim," but the girl didn't say it. Jim thought it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by mick, posted 09-17-2005 8:54 PM mick has not replied

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