where was the transition within fossil record?? [Stalled: randman]

I just thought I would throw this in...NO FOSSILS COUNT AS EVIDENCE FOR EVOLUTION...PERIOD.It is impossible for ANY fossil to count for evidence of evolution. Why? Because scientists, historians, or anybody for that matter, cannot prove that those fossils had ANY kids, let alone kids who were different than their parents.I saw a Uniformitarianism thread earlier and I would just like to bring up that if we don't see these transitions now, even to a very small degree, then why should we expect there to have beeen transitions in the past? Therefore, why should we label something a transitional fossil when we don't see any transitions occuring in the thousands of species that we have observed over the last several hundred years? Are we to assume that Uniformitarianism is false?I think the author of this thread has a good point, though. If evolution is true, geologists and biologists should expect to find all kinds of transitional forms, and not just for a few changes, but for every change. And I also cannot believe that the link posted showing the reptile-to-bird transitions actually included Archaeopterix (sp?). That was proven false years ago!!! Some Chinese farmer dug up a fossil and glued a piece onto it and sold it to National Geographic for thousands of dollars!!! National Geographic was so excited about the possibility of finding a rare transitional form (which should not be rare if evolution is true) that they bought into a fake. They had to report it was a fake in a later article stating that they had been duped. How do we know that if Archaeopterix is the only one that people have lied to the public about?This message has been edited by Eledhan, 09-20-2005 12:52 PM

A very small degree - (n.) The extent to which an organism begins to look like something other than itself, or when it looks different enough from its original state to call it another organism.[/sarcasm]This message has been edited by Eledhan, 09-20-2005 12:55 PM

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That could start when you compare a white rabbit to a brown rabbit.

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That's not what I said. I don't look different from myself if I change shirts do I? That's no different than changing skin or fur color. That is simply a change in which gene is dominant over the other genes.

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Do you mean, different species? Phylum? Family?

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I'm not trying to be obtuse, I'm just not sure how much change you expect us to reasonably observe.

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It's not a problem. I don't blame you.Alright here ya go: I want to know if it has EVER been observed or recorded that a certain organism has EVER changed to something of a completely different kind. Such as a dog becoming a cat, or vice versa, or a transition between the two. A dog becoming a wolf is not the change that I am talking about. That is still the same kind of animal.So, maybe that will be enough for you to realize what type of change I am talking about.Oh, and fossils, as I mentioned before, don't count for evidence towards this.This message has been edited by Eledhan, 09-20-2005 01:05 PM

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If you insist on this then rational discussion with you won't be possible.

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Why not? If you have a problem with my logic, then expose the inconsistencies. However, if not, I would greatly appreciate it if you would not attack me personally simply because I am willing to look at something differently than you.

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Assuming we're not talking about asexual reproduction, all kids are different from their parents. The changes are to a very small degree, but they accumulate through successive generations.

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Assuming that we are not talking about different hair or eye color or a difference in size. I'm talking about a completely different type of organism, or a significant transition between two organisms.

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Let's keep this one free of conspiracy theories.

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I was not trying to start a conspiracy theory, I was simply stating that National Geographic was duped ONCE, and that it was one of the examples. I was in no way trying to disprove all transitional fossil forms, I was merely bringing up the point that they are not ALL accurate. I'm sorry if that was off-topic. I'll try my very best to stay on-topic.

Oh...my...gosh...I was not talking about the example of dogs to cats, or vice versa!!! I was simply using that as an example!!! I am asking that someone please, for the love of everything good, show me an example of evolution beyond simply a change in which genes are dominant! All I want is a solid example as to how it would happen. Is that asking too much from people who insist that their way is the only way it could work?

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I doubt that this has ever been observed. The theory of evolution does not claim that this will ever occur.

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Huh? Are you telling me that evolution doesn't require that one species become another one in order to get all the different species that we observe today? I don't get it.

Okay, here's the only problem with your version of fossil usage...You are determining the age of the fossils based on the age of the layer they are found in.The only problem I have with this is that you can't have a tree, standing up, fossilized through more than one layer! And yet this is seen in various different places in the world. So, you assumption that one fossil is older than the other cannot necessarily be proven. Now I know you probably have a good answer to that, but that belongs in a different thread. My only point is, you have no way of determining just how old these fossils are, therefore, you cannot tell me that one came before the other. Obviously there are openings for too many debates to begin here, so I won't get into them.I will concede your point that fossils can be used PARTIALLY for evidence, but they are not the most important part.

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One species begatting another yes.

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So, you think that a horse could give birth to a zebra, even if it does not mate with a zebra?This message has been edited by Eledhan, 09-20-2005 01:32 PM

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Did you actually read my earlier post, and read it all the way to the end?

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Yes, I did. Did you? Apparently not, because, as I stated earlier, you would have realized that I was not trying to use an exact example from evolutionary theory, I was simply throwing out CATS & DOGS! I don't really care that cats didn't come from dogs, or vice versa. My point is, I want to see a good example as to how we have observed a similar jump to a transitional form. Obviously we could not have observed a jump all the way from cats to dogs, but that's still just a HYPOTHETICAL example.

Good response. Although it still fails to answer my biggest question... have we ever observed these changes?And I am sick and tired of people using the changes of hair, eye, and skin color (along with others). Any geneticist knows that these are not additions to the gene code, but simply different genes playing more dominant roles. I want to hear of an example for the theory of Evolution that has been observed.Essentially I am asking for the impossible, and I know that. That's my whole point. We could not observe the entire process, so therefore we are left to guessing. Which is fine, until someone tries to guess that God started it all, and then all of a sudden, it's not okay anymore. That's where I can't understand the logic.