Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 63 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 916,397 Year: 3,654/9,624 Month: 525/974 Week: 138/276 Day: 12/23 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   where was the transition within fossil record?? [Stalled: randman]
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4039
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.2


Message 31 of 304 (245202)
09-20-2005 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Eledhan
09-20-2005 12:45 PM


It is impossible for ANY fossil to count for evidence of evolution. Why? Because scientists, historians, or anybody for that matter, cannot prove that those fossils had ANY kids, let alone kids who were different than their parents.
We don't need to know if specific individuals had offspring. We aren't tracking individual family lines, we're tracking the evolution of entire species. We can easily see the chronological order that the fossils existed in through the geologic record, and it's easy to see the similarities in various organisms.
I saw a Uniformitarianism thread earlier and I would just like to bring up that if we don't see these transitions now, even to a very small degree, then why should we expect there to have beeen transitions in the past? Therefore, why should we label something a transitional fossil when we don't see any transitions occuring in the thousands of species that we have observed over the last several hundred years? Are we to assume that Uniformitarianism is false?
We do see transitionals today. Let me point out a few examples. Every feature of every organism in existance is a slightly altered version of the same feature in another species. Vestigial organs are a great example.
Human beings have an organ we call the appendix - it's basically useless. We can remove it without adversely affecting our lives, and it actually carries a rather high risk of infection that can lead to death. It's what we call a vestigial organ - it directly corresponds to the cecum of the alimentary canal of most other mammals. It's the same ogan, in the same spot - humans have simply evolved in such a way that we don't need it. In this way humans are directly related to "lower" mammals.
Let's take a look at insect wings. Most flying insects posess two pairs of wings. Dragonflies are a great example. But other insects don't use that second pair as wings - they're just a little bit different from their relatives. Flies, for example, use their second pair of wings as a kinfd of natural gyroscopic system to help them stabilize their flight. Beetles use their second set of wings as a shell that covers their flight pair. They're all examples of the same feature (the second set of wings) being slighty different from the same feature on other related species.
Most Creationists start out thinking that transitionals should be some sort of half-breed Chimaera-type monstrosity, like a half-dog, half-pig, or an ape-man. But that's just Hollywood sensationalism. It has nothing at all to do with what evolution actually predicts. Transitional species are simply a species that exists between its ancestors and its descendants, and bears features of both. In that respect, every species living is transitional, becuase every feature of every species is a slightly altered version of the same feature on a related species. No feature is unique - it's exactly what we would expect to see if common ancestry is true.
Other examples of transitionals would be most amphibians - they exist partway between water-dwelling organisms and fully land-bound creatures. Lungfish are another example. Whales and their ancestors are an example of a transition from land-dwelling to water-bound.
So, as you can see, there are many examples of transitional species that we see today. All of them are transitional!
Going back to the fossil record, now, you and the OP author really need to understand a little about the fossilization process. It's insanely rare. Every organism, and even every species, is not represented in the fossil record. We don't expect it to be - the percentage of creatures that become fossilizes is just too low to expect such a complete record. We sometimes get lucky - a volcano will erupt, or some other local event will flash-preserve a large number of fossils in a single area. It's like getting a decent (though incomplete) snapshot of life as it existed in that area at that moment in time. But conditions are not normally conducive to fissilization. Biological organisms decay, and are eaten by scavengers, etc. We can't possibly expect to see an example of every generation of organism that has ever existed. We are lucky when we find fossils, that's all.
So having "missing links" rather than a contiguous chain is all we can possibly hope for. Asking for steps 1 through 100,000 on chronological orgder is simply unrealistic - we aren't going to find them all, even assuming that they all existed. But, as you should have learned in geometry, we don't need every point on the line to see the line. If we have fossils of 1, 343, 43545, 43676, etc, we can still say "wow, those species are related! They all have very similar features as opposed to some other species, and the closer they are chronologically, the more similarities there are!"
I think the author of this thread has a good point, though. If evolution is true, geologists and biologists should expect to find all kinds of transitional forms, and not just for a few changes, but for every change. And I also cannot believe that the link posted showing the reptile-to-bird transitions actually included Archaeopterix (sp?). That was proven false years ago!!! Some Chinese farmer dug up a fossil and glued a piece onto it and sold it to National Geographic for thousands of dollars!!! National Geographic was so excited about the possibility of finding a rare transitional form (which should not be rare if evolution is true) that they bought into a fake. They had to report it was a fake in a later article stating that they had been duped. How do we know that if Archaeopterix is the only one that people have lied to the public about?
Archeopterix was not a single find. Several examples have been found - it's a real fossil, not a hoax. And it's hardly the only example we have of uncanny similarities between birds and dinosaurs - there's more to a bird than feathers. The unique lung structure of birds (where they essentially simultaneously inhale and exhale, a necessity for flight) has long been brought up by proponents of Creationism and Intelligent Design. But, as it turns out, we see various dinosaur fossils with nearly identical lung structure!
Here's an article.
quote:
A recent paper in Nature (11), shows that theropod dinosaurs have vertebrae pneumatized in a way that is very similar to modern birds. The authors have investigated the well preserved fossil of a theropod dinosaur called Majungatholus atopus and have found that the vertebrae possess very close similaritiies in pneumaticity compared with an extant bird (the sarus crane).
If you look at the pictures directly below the part I quoted, you'll see how amazingly similar the dinosaur fossils are to the structure of modern avians.
And it's not just the lungs, either. It's long been observed that many dinosaurs had bone structure (particularly the hips) that is very birdlike, as opposed to the structure of modern reptiles.
Transitional species are all around us, both today and in the fossil record. The evidence is there if you care to examine it. Every single prediction of evolution is verified by the fossil record and existing species. To falsify it, all you need to do is show an example of a truly unique organism - one whose features are so totally alien to all other life that they bear no similarity at all to any species ever found. Evolution predicts that no feature should be truly unique, and what we have found is that there are no truly unique features.

Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Eledhan, posted 09-20-2005 12:45 PM Eledhan has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 32 of 304 (245203)
09-20-2005 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Eledhan
09-20-2005 1:42 PM


Which is fine, until someone tries to guess that God started it all, and then all of a sudden, it's not okay anymore.
But no one says God didn't start it all. That has nothing to do with evolution anyway.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Eledhan, posted 09-20-2005 1:42 PM Eledhan has not replied

gene90
Member (Idle past 3844 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 33 of 304 (245204)
09-20-2005 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Eledhan
09-20-2005 1:42 PM


quote:
And I am sick and tired of people using the changes of hair, eye, and skin color (along with others). Any geneticist knows that these are not additions to the gene code, but simply different genes playing more dominant roles.
How about this?
quote:
Tomorrow's flowers may produce blooms with a dazzling profusion of petals. That's thanks to research at the Plant Gene Expression Center, in Albany, California, where scientists have discovered the petal-producing prowess of a gene named”appropriately enough”Ultrapetala.
...Skipping down the article...
quote:
For these tests, Fletcher soaked A. thaliana seeds in ethyl methanesulfonate. That changed the makeup of the Ultrapetala gene. Then she grew several generations of plants from these seeds. This technique, widely used in modern molecular biology, can yield plants with significant internal and external differences. These differences can help scientists pinpoint the roles that a gene plays in its natural, unaltered state.
USDA ARS Online Magazine Vol. 51, No. 5

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Eledhan, posted 09-20-2005 1:42 PM Eledhan has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 304 (245206)
09-20-2005 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Eledhan
09-20-2005 1:30 PM


quote:
Okay, here's the only problem with your version of fossil usage...
Good. Then once we get this problem settled, you will accept that the fossil evidence is pretty good.
-
quote:
You are determining the age of the fossils based on the age of the layer they are found in.
And the age of the layer is usually pretty accurately determined through radiometric dating. Radiometric dating is a very well understood science. We know which methods will work under which conditions, and we can identify the types of layers that will not give very accurate age determinations. When radiometric dating is used correctly, then we get some rather accurate age determinations. When different radiometric techniques are used on the same layers, different techniques that rely on very different radioactive decay mechanisms, they give very reliable, very consistent ages. And when fossils are dated in this manner, every single species is found only within a very narrow range of ages. In fact, the ages of fossil species are so consistent that we can then turn around and use the existence of certain species in a layer to give preliminary estimates of the ages of strata before radiometric dating can be done.
Here is a evangelical Christian site that explains how well radiometric dating works.
-
Polystryate fossils were explained over a hundred years ago; it is known that thick layers of sediments can be deposited quickly, and that several layers of sediments can be deposited very quickly, one after another.
-
quote:
My only point is, you have no way of determining just how old these fossils are, therefore, you cannot tell me that one came before the other.
Then you did not understand my point. I said that the very existence of these species are confirmation for evolution. These species did not have to exist at all; the theory of evolution insists that they did, and we have evidence that these species did exist.
That being said, it turns out that we can get very accurate ages on these fossils. We do know which species came before or after which, and what do you think we find? The more primitive, more terrestrial species did occur before more derived, more whale-like species, just as you would expect if whales evolved over time from terrestrial artiodactyls.
-
quote:
I will concede your point that fossils can be used PARTIALLY for evidence, but they are not the most important part.
You are exactly right. Fossils are not the most important evidence that we have. In fact, Darwin propose his theory of evolution, and scientists accepted common descent, before there was good fossil evidence. There is overwhelming evidence in a number of different disciplines, each relying on very different methodologies.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Eledhan, posted 09-20-2005 1:30 PM Eledhan has not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22480
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 35 of 304 (245207)
09-20-2005 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Eledhan
09-20-2005 1:17 PM


Eledhan writes:
quote:
If you insist on this then rational discussion with you won't be possible.
Why not? If you have a problem with my logic, then expose the inconsistencies.
Okay. You said:
It is impossible for ANY fossil to count for evidence of evolution. Why? Because scientists, historians, or anybody for that matter, cannot prove that those fossils had ANY kids,...
This leaves you arguing that only creatures that had no offspring left fossils. The lack of any rational foundation for this argument is readily apparent.
Assuming that we are not talking about different hair or eye color or a difference in size. I'm talking about a completely different type of organism, or a significant transition between two organisms.
A walk across the continent takes place through many individual steps. Each step changes your position by only a minuscule amount, but they eventually accumulate into large changes in position, and by-and-by you find yourself on the other coast. It is the same with evolutionary changes. The small number of mutations and allele recombinations that occur in each offspring accumulate through successive generations to eventually produce large changes.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Eledhan, posted 09-20-2005 1:17 PM Eledhan has not replied

nwr
Member
Posts: 6409
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 36 of 304 (245211)
09-20-2005 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Eledhan
09-20-2005 1:37 PM


Apparently not, because, as I stated earlier, you would have realized that I was not trying to use an exact example from evolutionary theory, I was simply throwing out CATS & DOGS! I don't really care that cats didn't come from dogs, or vice versa.
The same principle applies. Evolution does not claim that any modern species will evolve into any other highly different species. It claims only that there were common ancestors.
I don't expect any of my children or grandchildren to resemble any of your children or grandchildren. But, as far as I can tell, we did both have a common ancestor. And I suspect that even you agree on that.
I want to see a good example as to how we have observed a similar jump to a transitional form.
Rahvin has given you some examples in Message 31.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Eledhan, posted 09-20-2005 1:37 PM Eledhan has not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22480
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 37 of 304 (245214)
09-20-2005 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Modulous
09-20-2005 1:36 PM


Modulus writes:
It is impossible for ANY fossil to count for evidence of evolution. Why? Because scientists, historians, or anybody for that matter, cannot prove that those fossils had ANY kids, let alone kids who were different than their parents.
Straight from the Book of Hovind right? I'm sure, word for word, I've heard him say this on at least three seperate occasions.
Good catch. AIG's reponse to Hovind quotes Hovind saying:
Also, no fossil could ever count as evidence for evolution since it could never be proven the fossil had any offspring that lived let alone different offspring.
Pretty close paraphrase of Hovind from Eledhan.
So, Eledhan, if you're reading this, it seems it wasn't your rationality you were defending, it was Hovind's.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Modulous, posted 09-20-2005 1:36 PM Modulous has not replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 38 of 304 (245217)
09-20-2005 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Eledhan
09-20-2005 1:42 PM


evidence
Good response. Although it still fails to answer my biggest question... have we ever observed these changes?
Has anyone observed the divergence of organisms? Yes. However, bear in mind that the changes you are asking about occur over millions of years. This isn't a figure of convenience, it is a number derived from the evidence. Thus: It is impossible for a human being (average life expectency over the past million years probably around 35-40 years) to have observed even a fraction of the massively epic change in evolution.
The chimp/human divergence occurred millions of years ago. They look very much like us, not massive change (certainly less than a dog/cat transition), so humanity is unlikely to ever observe this phenomenon.
However, we can and do observe a bunch of evidence which we can draw conclusions from. We can then make predictions using those conclusions.
And I am sick and tired of people using the changes of hair, eye, and skin color (along with others). Any geneticist knows that these are not additions to the gene code, but simply different genes playing more dominant roles. I want to hear of an example for the theory of Evolution that has been observed.
How about, we can read the genome itself and mathematically deduce how long ago it shared a common ancestor with another organism. In almost all cases these mathematical predictions coincide accurately with what we find in the fossil record. This is the kind of evidence the theory has.
There is no case where we have observed massive change occuring within a few generations, since that would basically go against the theory which discusses allele frequencies in populations gradually propogating and undergoing selective pressure.
Essentially I am asking for the impossible, and I know that. That's my whole point. We could not observe the entire process, so therefore we are left to guessing.
When we convict someone of a murder when there were no witnesses, would you accuse the police detectives 'got their man' through guessing?
Which is fine, until someone tries to guess that God started it all, and then all of a sudden, it's not okay anymore.
If I claim that my wife was murdered by a Djinn when confronted by the police, but the police have a bloody knife with my fingerprints on it...which is okay?
Let me make something clear. It is perfectly okay to say God started it all. This is clearly different from saying "The theory of evolution is wrong because of [insert misconception here] and [insert dangerously misleading science] and of course [insert mathemagics]. If you want to believe God did x, that is fine. If you want to teach your religious belief, or your superstitions, your folklore or whatever to children in a science class...that's when it becomes an issue since saying that 'intangible entity x did something, but left no evidence of it' is not science.
The problem is not saying "God did it", but saying "God did it 6,000 years ago therefore all science that would indicate creation as older than 6,000 years old is wrong." and then using lies, tricks, frauds, manipulation, rhetoric, strawmen, sewing misconceptions and politics to influence the less academically minded people is where people have the problem.
If you don't believe the theory, that is fine.
If you believe the world was created 6,000 years ago, that is fine.
If you believe that there is no evidence for evolution, you are wrong
If you believe that it is founded on frauds, you have been mislead.
If you think it is against the laws of thermodynamics, someone has bamboozled you.
If you want creation taught in science class, you need to show that it is a science.
If you want to learn the wonderful theory and what it actually says, stick around, ask questions and post in threads. I've learned a heck of a lot since joining here.
And so on.
This message has been edited by Modulous, Tue, 20-September-2005 09:08 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Eledhan, posted 09-20-2005 1:42 PM Eledhan has not replied

NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9003
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 39 of 304 (245342)
09-20-2005 8:20 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Eledhan
09-20-2005 1:17 PM


To help with a misunderstanding
You are opperating with a number of serious misunderstandings. Perhaps this post will help with one of them:
Message 161

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Eledhan, posted 09-20-2005 1:17 PM Eledhan has not replied

david12
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 304 (247111)
09-28-2005 10:20 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Chiroptera
09-20-2005 11:05 AM


Alright, this is the way I see it. Creation is a FAITH as well as SCIENTIFIC theory. Evolution is solely a SCIENTIFIC theory. Meaning, the only thing evolution leans on is science. So, if you cannot find fossils that show the transition of species, then there is a big hole. I am really interested, because everyone that has posted here as commented (like the original thread starter said not to) about different opinions, and alluding to the fact that there is no significant fossil evidence to prove macroevolution. I do not want someone commentating on what Im saying, I WANT A FACT. because science is all about facts right?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Chiroptera, posted 09-20-2005 11:05 AM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by nwr, posted 09-28-2005 10:50 PM david12 has not replied
 Message 42 by crashfrog, posted 09-28-2005 10:56 PM david12 has not replied
 Message 43 by Chiroptera, posted 09-28-2005 11:00 PM david12 has not replied

nwr
Member
Posts: 6409
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 41 of 304 (247122)
09-28-2005 10:50 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by david12
09-28-2005 10:20 PM


If creation is a scientific theory, it ought to make some predictions. So what predictions does it make, and how will we test those empirically?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by david12, posted 09-28-2005 10:20 PM david12 has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1488 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 42 of 304 (247125)
09-28-2005 10:56 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by david12
09-28-2005 10:20 PM


I am really interested, because everyone that has posted here as commented (like the original thread starter said not to) about different opinions, and alluding to the fact that there is no significant fossil evidence to prove macroevolution.
If you have recieved this impression you are mistaken. There is significant, abundant fossil evidence to prove macroevolution and the accuracy of the evolutionary account.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by david12, posted 09-28-2005 10:20 PM david12 has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 304 (247129)
09-28-2005 11:00 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by david12
09-28-2005 10:20 PM


Hello, David.
quote:
So, if you cannot find fossils that show the transition of species, then there is a big hole.
Why do you say that, David? Charles Darwin developed his theory of evolution without relying on the fossil record. If you read Origin of Species and Descent of Man you will see that Darwin present quite a lot of very detailed evidence for evolution, but very little about fossils. There is a lot of good evidence for the theory of evolution without fossils.
Of course, the fossil record actually is more good evidence for evolution, but I am curious why people fixate on the fossils, seeing how there is so much good evidence to be found by examining modern, existing species.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by david12, posted 09-28-2005 10:20 PM david12 has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 44 of 304 (247143)
09-28-2005 11:47 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Eledhan
09-20-2005 12:54 PM


A very small degree - (n.) The extent to which an organism begins to look like something other than itself, or when it looks different enough from its original state to call it another organism.[/sarcasm]
Sarcasm aside, do you look exactly like your parents? Do you know of any child that does? Has human stature remained constant throughout recorded history? Why are new olympic records set (even if by a "very small degree")?
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Eledhan, posted 09-20-2005 12:54 PM Eledhan has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 45 of 304 (247146)
09-28-2005 11:51 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Eledhan
09-20-2005 1:03 PM


Such as a dog becoming a cat, or vice versa,
Please explain where evolution says this happens?

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Eledhan, posted 09-20-2005 1:03 PM Eledhan has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by david12, posted 09-29-2005 12:01 AM RAZD has replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024