Did Adam and eve really have a choice?

Really? I don't see it quite like that. I agree that God foreknew what was going to happen. He allowed His creation independance from Him in a total way.We have the ability to wish or "prove" Him out of existance. So suppose He was not real. Why be mad at a God that you did not agree to? Allow a God into your conception that is not cruel and sadistic. Well, from what we know of the story, which is not the totality of what He knew and also not the totality of how Adam and Eve perceived reality, the Serpant fell first...otherwise he would be as gentle as all the other animals supposedly were.God never made an evil Satan. God allowed through foreknowledge that a freewill Lucifer would spawn the desire to raise up and be like God.Metaphor: Iron and Steel. A cast Iron skillet is strong yet brittle. It breaks rather easily. Through tempuring the metal, iron becomes stronger...like steel. Satan was known as the temptor. Perhaps he was allowed to exist so that we innocent humans would have something to resist...in order to grow stronger, like with muscles.First, however, we had to be shown how humanity was incapable of raising up without help. Jesus came for that answer. People ask what big deal did Jesus do, seeing as how He was God and could not eternally die. What we forget was at that time, He was a man. It would be as if you stepped on my toe and it did not hurt me, but if I also could be a bug, you would squish me at that point. Jesus died, yet God never died...so Jesus had the hookup to be raised from the dead.Some say that the whole story is needless nonsense, and I sometimes see their logic. Why could God not merely snap His fingers and teach humanity an instant lesson? Well....He has all the time in the world and we have 85 years+, so the pressure is on us to make the move.See my other post here.

It is not so important when it happened. The presuppositions that should be kept open are that there is a source (or sources) of knowledge besides our own. (By our, I mean human wisdom) God may exist and He may be Objective to some, but if the concept is subjective to you, you either can dismiss the idea of God entirely or you can think about the God that would be best for us to have...and ignore that evil sadistic O.T. stuff. Jesus seems rather nice, does He not?

What do we expect from heretical writings? (Oh No! I have opened up a can of worms! ) Sounds more like Harry Potter to me.This message has been edited by Phatboy, 09-28-2005 02:49 PM

Brian, I have always avoided the all-knowing eye of Baal, but that new avatar of yours reminds me of a peeping Tom through a frosty window!Tell us a story of one of the best discussions that you have ever had theologically with one of your students....did any of them find themselves frustratingly moved with passion to try and understand you? Did any of them give you cause to think? (Around here, I know that Jar has a folksy charm about him that I respect!)

I believe that humanity as a whole and yet individually is the chooser. In todays world, we do understand the choice. Irregardless of how it started or whether the story was but a parable, Jesus was not Plan B. He was plan A from the get-go. Today, many people complain that if Jesus were the only answer there STILL would be no choice. Think about the choice, however. Do you want Good or Evil? Who in their right mind would choose evil?
IF God is the representation of harmony, purpose, and unity (common unity) communion as it were . in this universe, why would any creature anywhere choose to live outside of that reality?This message has been edited by Phatboy, 09-26-2005 02:28 PM

I never would!

So do we label them as:
1) What is.
2) What should be? I've seen people in deli lines or in a store that are given 12 choices yet still do not find the one that THEY prefer.Our real question, then, could be redefined as "Why did God make a choice that I do not prefer?"

Hey, Creavolution! This debate always has some wild turns and twists, and each time I approach it, I do so with a bit more insight. An atheist would say that there is no god and that humans make the choices. Further, human wisdom is the only standard by which to judge the Bible, logic, or knowledge. It builds upon itself.What frustrates the skeptics is that many Biblical arguments are based on the Bible. Circular reasoning, they say.To some believers, the Bible is the living word, because "In the Beginning was the word...thus, salvation includes the Bible as truth.I used to think that way, and I suppose that it IS possible, seeing as how with God ALL things are possible(see? That Word, again!)The supernatural aspect of God is definitely possible! That being said, the supernatural aspect of demonic spirits is equally possible...according to that Bible!Now...I have said in the past that I believe in the supernatural.The skeptics would say that this leaves open the door of the imagination where fairies, I.P.U.s and deities and manifestations of all types frolic about.Thus, lets limit our focus to the real world of everyday events.Scholastically, Adam and Eve have been far from factual.How about archtypically, though?You are quite right to never want a God as you see the descriptions of Him being in the O.T.You or I have a choice every day how we are to behave, however.We are not a train wreck. A train wrecks when nobody is at the controls. SOMEBODY rose from the Dead 2000 years ago, (by faith)That gives us a choice...yet again. Do we trust this fable or not?If I were you, I would follow my heart.

Maybe this explains how a freewill Lucifer was foreknown to become Satan. Of course, we have discussed how none of this is found in the Bible, but we DO know that Jesus mentioned Satan, and if any of the Bible is to be believed, it certainly is allright to question it. I believe Jesus, so keep asking questions!

Yes, but does this not reemphasize the "Ye shall be as gods", thing? Why does it irk human reasoning so much to admit that God is always going to be in charge no matter what we do? I would much rather spend time "in communion" than "in outer darkness". Even if, deep down, I would rather be free than shackled to God, it is only because I don't know Him.

Yes, but it is interesting what Jesus says, according to Matthew: Jesus acknowledges that people are evil, as He is addressing his Disciples. In the same moment, He suggests that what kind of a Father would give His son a snake? So...A&E does need to be reconsidered. Yes, I see the point. I will have to rethink (or pray for wisdom) concerning this topic. I certainly want my belief to be firsthand from the source and not from dogma and tradition, necessarily.

Good post! Calvanism would agree with you, perhaps. It is true that God knows us better than we know ourselves. He knows which of us will choose Him and which of us will reject Him. He would then also know the way in which we choose. Perhaps He draws us towards Him. The question, then, is this: Does He draw ALL unto Himself or does He draw certain ones toward Himself?In computer lingo, "Many are called yet few chosen" could be set up as X are called, Y are chosen. Is X a definite number or a variable?
Apparantly, Y is a definite number.This message has been edited by Phatboy, 09-28-2005 06:39 AM

Maybe the answer lies in the idea of relationship. Jesus is all about relationships. Jesus is also all about humans each being unique and equally loved. As for Him thinking that His sacrifice was no big deal, He substituted Himself for the other option. Humanity itself would have had to be the sacrifice. Now...from Gods point of view, we are but one massive lump of clay. From our point of view, however, our lives matter. if there is any point to life beyond our time here on earth, we either should get to know God..(If that is possible) or get to know ourselves..(which we are doing increasingly) We can blame God for all suffering, or we can respond to the suffering as we have the power to do, God or no God. Some of us choose to trust Jesus and some do not. Lets at least begin by trusting each other, if possible.

How about "You can be any spirit you want as long as it is mine?"Did He ever say that? He did have a book of Life..and there were names in the book that were blotted out. Why would God need an eraser? He never makes mistakes...He knows and foreknows everything, right? Unless perhaps choices were being made after He wrote the book. So what it boils down to in my view is this: Jesus: The only other option. This is the inclusiveness of the Gospel that annoys so many.

This Website discusses another theological view that maintains that God does NOT know everything....