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Author Topic:   Did Adam and eve really have a choice?
Brian
Member (Idle past 4960 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 16 of 219 (246066)
09-24-2005 7:37 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Phat
09-24-2005 5:08 AM


Re: Bad God!
.
This message has been edited by Brian, 10-13-2005 02:56 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Phat, posted 09-24-2005 5:08 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Phat, posted 09-24-2005 8:45 AM Brian has replied
 Message 29 by iano, posted 09-26-2005 7:06 AM Brian has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 17 of 219 (246082)
09-24-2005 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Brian
09-24-2005 7:37 AM


Re: Bad God!
Brian writes:
So, if someone doesn't believe that 6000 years ago a talking snake persuaded a woman to eat a magical fruit that suddenly filled the person who ate it with a great deal of knowledge, what possible pressure is there on that individual to "make a move"?
It is not so important when it happened. The presuppositions that should be kept open are that there is a source (or sources) of knowledge besides our own. (By our, I mean human wisdom) God may exist and He may be Objective to some, but if the concept is subjective to you, you either can dismiss the idea of God entirely or you can think about the God that would be best for us to have...and ignore that evil sadistic O.T. stuff. Jesus seems rather nice, does He not?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Brian, posted 09-24-2005 7:37 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Brian, posted 09-24-2005 9:08 AM Phat has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4960 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 18 of 219 (246087)
09-24-2005 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Phat
09-24-2005 8:45 AM


Re: Bad God!
.
This message has been edited by Brian, 10-13-2005 02:57 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Phat, posted 09-24-2005 8:45 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by jar, posted 09-24-2005 9:23 AM Brian has replied
 Message 21 by nwr, posted 09-24-2005 9:53 AM Brian has replied
 Message 154 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-03-2005 10:41 PM Brian has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 19 of 219 (246088)
09-24-2005 9:23 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Brian
09-24-2005 9:08 AM


Stretching things?
Is it really fair to pull the IGOT on folk?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Brian, posted 09-24-2005 9:08 AM Brian has replied

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 Message 20 by Brian, posted 09-24-2005 9:27 AM jar has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4960 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 20 of 219 (246089)
09-24-2005 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by jar
09-24-2005 9:23 AM


Re: Stretching things?
.
This message has been edited by Brian, 10-13-2005 02:57 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by jar, posted 09-24-2005 9:23 AM jar has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 21 of 219 (246093)
09-24-2005 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Brian
09-24-2005 9:08 AM


Re: Bad God!
Anyone who can kill a child for accidently bumping into him is not a nice person.
Hi, Brian.
Can you give us the source of the quote you used to make this point. Inquiring minds want to know.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Brian, posted 09-24-2005 9:08 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Brian, posted 09-24-2005 10:10 AM nwr has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4960 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 22 of 219 (246095)
09-24-2005 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by nwr
09-24-2005 9:53 AM


Re: Bad God!
.
This message has been edited by Brian, 10-13-2005 02:58 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by nwr, posted 09-24-2005 9:53 AM nwr has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Phat, posted 09-24-2005 10:46 AM Brian has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 23 of 219 (246098)
09-24-2005 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Brian
09-24-2005 10:10 AM


Re: Bad God!
What do we expect from heretical writings? (Oh No! I have opened up a can of worms! ) Sounds more like Harry Potter to me.
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 09-28-2005 02:49 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Brian, posted 09-24-2005 10:10 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Brian, posted 09-25-2005 5:49 AM Phat has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4960 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 24 of 219 (246234)
09-25-2005 5:49 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Phat
09-24-2005 10:46 AM


Re: Bad God!
.
This message has been edited by Brian, 10-13-2005 02:58 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Phat, posted 09-24-2005 10:46 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Phat, posted 09-25-2005 7:36 AM Brian has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 25 of 219 (246244)
09-25-2005 7:36 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Brian
09-25-2005 5:49 AM


Re: Bad God!
Brian, I have always avoided the all-knowing eye of Baal, but that new avatar of yours reminds me of a peeping Tom through a frosty window!
Tell us a story of one of the best discussions that you have ever had theologically with one of your students....did any of them find themselves frustratingly moved with passion to try and understand you? Did any of them give you cause to think? (Around here, I know that Jar has a folksy charm about him that I respect!)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Brian, posted 09-25-2005 5:49 AM Brian has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 26 of 219 (246464)
09-26-2005 6:38 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Heathen
09-23-2005 1:38 PM


Crevo writes:
Nope, I'm suggesting that if god Designed us, and God knew we(Adam and Eve) were going to make the wrong choice, he had the power to review that design and prevent the inevitable from happening. he did not. He had the ability to affect the outcome. he did not.
We're progressing: knowledge and understanding through discussion
God knew the wrong choice would be made. He had the power to prevent that choice being made. The question is how would he do that? Patently, not giving a choice would be one way: don't put the tree there in the first place. But you may agree that in order to have choice a genuine choice must be provided. Knowledge of good and evil serves pretty well.
Now Adam and Eve only knew what it was like to have 'good' as there was no evil then. But they wouldn't have known that good was good unless they has something to compare it with - it's opposite. That's what knowledge of good and evil achieved. Notice how they came to know they were naked after the fall. They weren't aware of it before.
They had a choice in that they could simply trust God, in a childlike way, when he said 'don't eat' ie: chose to remain dependant on God or they could choose to be independant of God and let follow their own path. In choosing their own path they accomplished choice for all mankind. All mankind has knowledge of good and evil now. And we too will chose. Adam and Eve were born dependant on God and choose independance. Everyone else is born independant from God and can choose dependance.
You say God had the power to prevent it but how? How do you provide choice without providing choice? More and more knowledge of consequences to the point of making a choice for God a dead-cert is not true choice. God found it sufficient to say 'don't + consequences' We could talk about what they understood by death etc for ever. We'd be speculating though. Suffice that what God said was a barrier express by Eve which Satan had to overcome. Had God put up more barriers by explaining consequence then Satan would have put up more arguement than he did. God's command and Satans deceit had to balance each other in order, in the end, to leave the free choice with A&E (A&E - Accident and Emergency - kind of fitting )
The key is to try and think of an alternative which obtains the goal (free choice in order that total love becomes possible). How else could God have achieved this? If one can't think of an alternative then maybe one can see that for all the downsides, this was the only way it could be.
Very much follows from this point of Fall. If it is understood then much else of Gods plan of salvation will fall into place.
If I believed in God, the God of the Bible, I would want to know the answers to these questions before I began Worshiping this being. the evidence i see points to an unloving God.
You won't ever believe in God of the Bible by figuring out the story and giving it intellectual assent. There is only one way to believe in God and God is the one who does it. He gives you faith in him - you don't work it up by yourself. You can't. How you arrive at that point varies from person to person but common to all 'testimonies' is Goddidit. The only role you play (possibly) is to ask him to do it...and how you ask can vary from person to person

"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Heathen, posted 09-23-2005 1:38 PM Heathen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Heathen, posted 09-26-2005 1:01 PM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 27 of 219 (246466)
09-26-2005 6:46 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by ramoss
09-23-2005 2:17 PM


ramoss writes:
God set man up, so man would be able to make choices. By choose the good choices, man can be closer to god, and live a more sanctified life.
Salvation by works in another guise. Choose good and God will be pleased...and vice versa. Something which every Religion in the world (including Judasim) has in common. God of the weighing scales
Luckily for us, it's total hogwash. God saves filthy, manky, greasy dirty sinners not 'good' people. Salvation has nothing at all to do with 'being good', going to church, praying, giving to the poor.
It ain't about following laws. It never was and never will be

"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

This message is a reply to:
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iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 28 of 219 (246467)
09-26-2005 6:54 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by ReverendDG
09-24-2005 4:08 AM


Re: just a comment
demongoat writes:
so.. you are claiming that good things can't be flawed?
i always thought this wasn't a very good answer, god said "good" not perfect, if it was flawless he would have said perfect, or something like that.
Only in a flawed world is there necessity for shades of meaning such as good, better, best. God is good, he doesn't need other words to qualify this. Good is just good when your talking God "in him there is no darkness at all" God is love is the same thing. It's not necessary to add "stupifyingly, brilliant and fantastic love. Just love will do. 'Absolute' is about the best way if you have to adjectivize Gods qualities: love, beauty, wrath etc into the human realm.
this always burned me a bit since pefection is impossable
"With God all things (that are possible) are possible"

"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by ReverendDG, posted 09-24-2005 4:08 AM ReverendDG has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 29 of 219 (246469)
09-26-2005 7:06 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Brian
09-24-2005 7:37 AM


Re: Bad God!
Brian writes:
So, if someone doesn't believe that 6000 years ago a talking snake persuaded a woman to eat a magical fruit that suddenly filled the person who ate it with a great deal of knowledge, what possible pressure is there on that individual to "make a move"?
What if some sheep herder up the side of a mountain in Tibet never hears of a book called the bible or the God therein described? Is he doomed because of it? Not in the least.
You have a conscience Brian, we all have. That is a communication device open to all. God calls - he speaks to you personally. It's about whether or not you respond to that call. Note the call is an 'ought to do' call not 'must do' call. God will never interfere in your free choice. And it's not about trying to follow your conscience all the time - you won't be able. God sees your heart and its there where everything happens - not intellectualising it. How could anyone read the bible and suppose it was true - there are too many obstacles to that?
Gods method is to convict a person of sin. To show them that they are a sinner. That's the key thing. He doesn this through conscience and through his word. It's not about you understanding by your own power. He convicts you of it. How you respond it what matters. Me? I was touched by God in a serious way 10 years before I became a believer. I chose to ignore it. But he is persistant (because he want none to perish). It is by persistant ignoring and failing to acknowledge his call that a person "hardens their heart" to him. This is potentialy lethal because the call falls on increasing (self-deafened) ears.
Luckily it is not your intellect that holds you away from God. It doesn't matter that you have intellectual problems with believing God. How could you have anything else? It is heart God is dealing with and he knows your heart despite what your intellect says. He knows if deep down you are troubled by your own sin. He knows if you struggle with stuff that you hate doing but can't seem to help doing. He knows if your heart yearns for him - even if you don't know it's him you yearn for. This is God Brian, he operates in ways beyond your understanding.
Heart...that's were its at. And he sees all hearts - whether they want him to or not.

"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Brian, posted 09-24-2005 7:37 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by Brian, posted 10-01-2005 4:48 PM iano has not replied
 Message 133 by Ben!, posted 10-01-2005 4:56 PM iano has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 30 of 219 (246490)
09-26-2005 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by ReverendDG
09-24-2005 4:08 AM


Perfect is not Flawless
quote:
i always thought this wasn't a very good answer, god said "good" not perfect, if it was flawless he would have said perfect, or something like that.
this always burned me a bit since pefection is impossable
The Hebrew word for good used in Genesis doesn't bring with it the thought of completion or being flawless.
But then the Hebrew words translated as perfect or complete in the OT also do not carry the idea of being flawless.
IMO the term without blemish doesn't carry the same meaning as Christians use flawless today.
Even looking at the etymology of the word perfect we find that it carries a meaning of complete and not necessarily without flaw. IMO perfection is possible.
All God really said about creation was that it was pleasant and agreeable, not necessarily complete.

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
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