So was there really a choice? Another way would be to inform the Chooser of the consequences. Adam and Eve did not understand death, how could they understand the full consequenses of their Choice. God Seemed keen to give the free will, but still wanted that they blindly accept his demand for obeyance? without giving them an understanding of the consequences of the alternative? what game was he playing? But they had no knowledge of good and evil until AFTER the choice was made.God set the conditions for man's fall he created a situation in which there was no alternative. THERE WAS NO CHOICE. How can you say God gave Adam and Eve a choice, when you are the one pointing out that they in fact had no such choice. I have to agree here.

I believe that humanity as a whole and yet individually is the chooser. In todays world, we do understand the choice. Irregardless of how it started or whether the story was but a parable, Jesus was not Plan B. He was plan A from the get-go. Today, many people complain that if Jesus were the only answer there STILL would be no choice. Think about the choice, however. Do you want Good or Evil? Who in their right mind would choose evil?
IF God is the representation of harmony, purpose, and unity (common unity) communion as it were . in this universe, why would any creature anywhere choose to live outside of that reality?This message has been edited by Phatboy, 09-26-2005 02:28 PM

I can't disregard how it started, that is what we are dicussing here. Who in their right mind would choose a God who knowingly set man up for a fall and condemned us to certain hell?

I never would!

Thought we'd gone past that. How does God knowing the choice that will be made influence the choice that will be made? I asked already: if God had taken measures to explain the full consequences of that choice so as to make it more likely that satans tempting wouldn't be listened to, has he not interfered with the choice? If whatever actions God took were such so as to equal satans effect then the choice was perfectly balanced...and came down to A&E's themselves. Any imbalance on Gods part (or satans) would mean the dice was loaded.I ask again: if they had chosen 'correctly', would God not be accused of loading the dice here too. In which circumstances can God give someone a free choice if no matter what they chose is seen by you to be a loaded dice. God set the conditions for TWO situations not one. Perfect relationship or not. He started out a giving perfect not the other way around. He lavished on them. In giving them the choice he set up conditions for choice.How could God give choice if there was nothing to chose from. His very giving of a choice is being used by you to say there was none. That they chose what they chose is being used by you to say the dice was loaded. But any choice would result in the same charge being laid. That's not reasonable....And your forgetting one vital thing. God sacrificed his own Son (think your own child if you have one - only imagine the level of love you have is a thousandfold that which you have) in order that the situation (our fallen-ness) could be redeemed. If God could have come up with a solution whereby he could give choice but not give choice he would have avoided all the pain he felt taking this action. That he didn't means he couldn't. God can no more resolve a true paradox that you or I can.This message has been edited by iano, 26-Sep-2005 08:26 PM

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

I'm reluctant to repeat myself, but You're leaving no option: And how does asking them to make an uninformed choice of such magnitude equal balance? the whole thing was unbalanced. God knew what choice would be made, He made them that way, He created the conditions which would lead to that choice How much more unbalanced can you get?
I don't take issue with God loading dice either way, what I take issue with is God creating a situation whereby there was only going to be one outcome and then holding the whole of Humanity responsible for that outcome.
I'll type it again just incase you miss it again:
what I take issue with is God CREATING A SITUATION whereby there was only going to be ONE outcome, and then holding the whole of Humanity responsible for that outcome
(ok.. so I cut/pasted) Read My Posts again. what I've said was that he could have made A&E better informed about the choice they had to make.

Crevo: lets try get at least a bit out of the way.In the above quote you would be right. On what basis though do you decide that the choice was pre-determined, ie: there was no choice in fact?(I cant' see your point about foreknowledge=predeterming choice. Can you explain how one implies the other)(neither can I see 'insufficent data about consequence' implying it. If God supplied more data would not satan tempt harder. If God loads the dice against temptation then where is the choice?)This message has been edited by iano, 26-Sep-2005 09:38 PM

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

So do we label them as:
1) What is.
2) What should be? I've seen people in deli lines or in a store that are given 12 choices yet still do not find the one that THEY prefer.Our real question, then, could be redefined as "Why did God make a choice that I do not prefer?"

I think You're the one actually attatching 'predetermination' to it. that's not quite what I suggest.I don't know how to explain it otherwise to be honest, my fault. But the way I see it (if genesis is to be believed).1)God created Adam and Eve
2)God created the garden, the tree, the serpent.
i.e. he created all the circumstances leading to the fall. He knew what the outcome would be.
therefore I don't think there was a choice in any real sense. it was a foregone conclusion that they would choose a certain path.they did not know death, they did not know evil(or good?). yet they were presented with a choice, the consequences of which they couldn't possibly understand.God has since punished the entire human race for what happened in the garden that day.

Once there were two nuns..One of them was known as Sister Mathematical (SM), and the other one was known as Sister Logical (SL).It is getting dark and they are still far away from the convent.SM: Have you noticed that a man has been following us for the past thirty-eight and a half minutes? I wonder what he wants.SL: It's logical. He wants to rape us.SM: Oh, no! At this rate he will reach us in 15 minutes at the most! What can we do?SL: The only logical thing to do of course is to walk faster.SM: It's not working.SL: Of course it's not working. The man did the only logical thing. He started to walk faster, too.SM: So, what shall we do? At this rate he will reach us in one minute.SL: The only logical thing we can do is split up. You go that way and I'll go this way. He cannot follow us both.So the man decided to follow Sister Logical.Sister Mathematical arrives at the convent and is worried about what has happened to Sister LogicalThen Sister Logical arrives.SM: Sister Logical! Thank God you are here! Tell me what happened!SL: The only logical thing happened. The man couldn't follow us both, so he followed me.SM : Yes, yes! But what happened then?SL: The only logical thing happened. I started to run as fast as I could and he started to run as fast as he could.SM: And?SL: The only logical thing happened. He reached me.SM: Oh, dear! What did you do?SL: The only logical thing to do. I lifted my dress up.SM: Oh, Sister! What did the man do?SL: The only logical thing to do. He pulled down his pants.SM: Oh, no! What happened then?SL : Isn't it logical, Sister? A nun with her dress up can run faster than man with his pants down.And for those of you who thought it would be dirty,Say two Hail Marys!

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

Hi
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thus,,, content deleted by AdminJar

you're outta here joan

This message has been edited by AdminJar, 09-26-2005 04:07 PM

It's not all spot on (ie: he created satan but satan wasn't created evil - he too fell) but no matter...God created the circumstances where there COULD be a fall. This is subtley and vitally different. "Could be" means choice. Knowing there would be, frustrating as it may appear (I do understand...I was in the same position as you)...does not affect the ability to chose. There is nothing about foreknowledge which means the result was a set up, pre-determined, foregone conclusion etc.God could have set up the fall alright but like I say, the fall doesn't mean set up to fall. Consider the following:When a person turns to God their sins are forgiven. God choses to forget all about them. God can chose to put my sin "as far as the east is from the west". It is no problem for God to set up a perfectly fair choice yet know the resultAnd choice is so critical Crevo. Everything rolls out from here... so....Night

I guess we'll have to disagree on that point then.

Hey, Creavolution! This debate always has some wild turns and twists, and each time I approach it, I do so with a bit more insight. An atheist would say that there is no god and that humans make the choices. Further, human wisdom is the only standard by which to judge the Bible, logic, or knowledge. It builds upon itself.What frustrates the skeptics is that many Biblical arguments are based on the Bible. Circular reasoning, they say.To some believers, the Bible is the living word, because "In the Beginning was the word...thus, salvation includes the Bible as truth.I used to think that way, and I suppose that it IS possible, seeing as how with God ALL things are possible(see? That Word, again!)The supernatural aspect of God is definitely possible! That being said, the supernatural aspect of demonic spirits is equally possible...according to that Bible!Now...I have said in the past that I believe in the supernatural.The skeptics would say that this leaves open the door of the imagination where fairies, I.P.U.s and deities and manifestations of all types frolic about.Thus, lets limit our focus to the real world of everyday events.Scholastically, Adam and Eve have been far from factual.How about archtypically, though?You are quite right to never want a God as you see the descriptions of Him being in the O.T.You or I have a choice every day how we are to behave, however.We are not a train wreck. A train wrecks when nobody is at the controls. SOMEBODY rose from the Dead 2000 years ago, (by faith)That gives us a choice...yet again. Do we trust this fable or not?If I were you, I would follow my heart.

My heart is a bag of muscle that Pumps oxygenated blood around my body.It follows me.(good job too!)