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Author Topic:   Did Adam and eve really have a choice?
Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 46 of 219 (246743)
09-27-2005 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by iano
09-26-2005 5:06 PM


Hi iano,
iano writes:
There is nothing about foreknowledge which means the result was a set up, pre-determined, foregone conclusion etc.
..........It is no problem for God to set up a perfectly fair choice yet know the result
you've said the above (or words to that effect) a few times now. The problem is that if you have omniscient foreknowledge then that limits the choice of others. If God knows what you're going to do and he cannot be wrong. then you only have one real choice: the one that God knows you're going to take. So you haven't really got a fair choice, though you may think you have, your choice is always going to be the one that God foreknows.

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by iano, posted 09-26-2005 5:06 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Heathen, posted 09-27-2005 7:13 PM Legend has replied
 Message 48 by JustinC, posted 09-27-2005 11:25 PM Legend has replied
 Message 52 by iano, posted 09-28-2005 7:35 AM Legend has replied
 Message 55 by Phat, posted 09-28-2005 7:53 AM Legend has not replied

  
Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 47 of 219 (246793)
09-27-2005 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Legend
09-27-2005 1:53 PM


That's what I've been trying (badly I admit) to get at.
Unfortunately it seems I hit 'The Christian Wall'
NONE SHALL PASS!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Legend, posted 09-27-2005 1:53 PM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Legend, posted 09-28-2005 5:51 AM Heathen has not replied
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JustinC
Member (Idle past 4844 days)
Posts: 624
From: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Joined: 07-21-2003


Message 48 of 219 (246845)
09-27-2005 11:25 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Legend
09-27-2005 1:53 PM


I don't know if I like this argument. Imagine you could view yourself in the past. You know exactly what you are going to do next, but does that mean that you didn't have a choice in the matter at the time?
Knowledge of someone's future actions doesn't mean they didn't have a choice in their actions.
There are two good articles on this subject. The one is by Nelson Pike and the other, by Alvin Plantinga, is a rebuttal to his. I can't think of the article names right now, but I'm sure you can google them if you are interestd.
I used to use the same reasoning as you but I don't think its conclusion is crystal clear.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Legend, posted 09-27-2005 1:53 PM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
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Asgara
Member (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 49 of 219 (246846)
09-27-2005 11:30 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by JustinC
09-27-2005 11:25 PM


The free-will vs. foreknowledge issue doesn't rest solely on the fore-knowledge.
You knowing in advance what you will do is not the same as an omnipotent, sole creator of life knowing what you will do.

Asgara
"I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now"
select * from USERS where CLUE > 0
http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com
http://perditionsgate.bravepages.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by JustinC, posted 09-27-2005 11:25 PM JustinC has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 50 of 219 (246880)
09-28-2005 5:51 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Heathen
09-27-2005 7:13 PM


A lot of Christiians, like iano, use the 'free will' argument as a get-out-of-jail card in order to justify facts contradictory to the concept of a loving and omnipotent God, e.g. the existence of evil, diseases, etc. I just don't think you can have it both ways, either God takes responsibility for the effects of his actions or he doesn't. The Christian line is that when good things happen to you it's due to God's work but when bad things happen it's because of your own (or your ancestors') bad choices. My God-given sense of right and wrong tells me this is wrong, man-made and artificial.
Creavolution writes:
Unfortunately it seems I hit 'The Christian Wall'
it's bigger than the Berlin wall and wall of China put together and a lot more difficult to take down

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Heathen, posted 09-27-2005 7:13 PM Heathen has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by iano, posted 09-28-2005 7:48 AM Legend has replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 51 of 219 (246881)
09-28-2005 6:14 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by JustinC
09-27-2005 11:25 PM


Justin writes:
I don't know if I like this argument. Imagine you could view yourself in the past. You know exactly what you are going to do next, but does that mean that you didn't have a choice in the matter at the time?
yes but that's hindsight, not foresight. If I knew exactly what you were going to do next and I cannot be wrong then you really don't have a choice, do you ?
Justin writes:
Knowledge of someone's future actions doesn't mean they didn't have a choice in their actions.
Yes for you and I, because we might be *wrong* in our knowledge. However, like Asgara says, an omniscient being cannot be wrong and, therefore, our choice is limited to only one.
Justin writes:
There are two good articles on this subject. The one is by Nelson Pike and the other, by Alvin Plantinga, is a rebuttal to his. I can't think of the article names right now, but I'm sure you can google them if you are interestd.
I'll look them up, thanks.
Justin writes:
I used to use the same reasoning as you but I don't think its conclusion is crystal clear.
No it's not. If anything about the Christian religion was crystal clear we wouldn't be having this debate now and I'd still be a practising Christian.
It always made me wonder why an omnipotent God who loves us and wants us to be saved didn't bother communicating all this clearly to us.

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by JustinC, posted 09-27-2005 11:25 PM JustinC has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 52 of 219 (246888)
09-28-2005 7:35 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Legend
09-27-2005 1:53 PM


Legend writes:
The problem is that if you have omniscient foreknowledge then that limits the choice of others. If God knows what you're going to do and he cannot be wrong. then you only have one real choice: the one that God knows you're going to take. So you haven't really got a fair choice, though you may think you have, your choice is always going to be the one that God foreknows.
One of the temptations that Satan used on Eve was "you will become like God" The Fall can be subtitled by the sentence "man wanted to be independant of God"
What is 'good'? Is it mans definiton that counts or Gods?. Definition of evil? Mans definition or Gods? Choice. What is that word? Is it Gods definition or mans that counts. In all cases it must be Gods definition. We cannot say our definition is a more correct or truer one than his. He knows all the facets which make up these things. We don't
Whatever way Goddidit in giving us the ability to chose that's the way he did it. If there were consequences for that choice - as he defines choice, then that's the way he did it. There is, you would probably agree, absolutely no point in disagreeing or arguing with God about it.
Man however, being his own god, does precisely that. That is the Olt Testament in a nutshell. Man displaying his desire to be independant of God. Man says things like "If that's the way God did it then I spit in his face" But that's ridiculous. If God said that was the way it is then thats the way it is. Shake you fist all you like it doesn't change the fact that what he says and did matters - not what you want. You may want to be independant of God but that is NOT a choice you get to make.
If God found it sufficient to give us choice - on his terms - then that's the choice we have. There is a section in the new testement in which man is told that if God wanted to created creatures simply for destruction so that the creatures he choses to save would be realise how thankful they should be then who is man to say "that's not fair"? God defines whats fair - not man.
As to your point: nobody has even shown how foreknowledge of something influences the choice. The reason being that nobody knows what foreknowledge of choice would actually entail. Nobody, but God knows that situation to say he HAD to influence the result. On the other hand
I ask you to pick a number, either 1 or 2. It can be only one of the two that you pick. I don't know what your going to pick. Your choice.
Then, before you chose, I get foreknowledge as to your choice. How is your choice affected by that knowledge?

"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Legend, posted 09-27-2005 1:53 PM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by purpledawn, posted 09-28-2005 7:55 AM iano has replied
 Message 59 by Modulous, posted 09-28-2005 8:26 AM iano has replied
 Message 62 by Heathen, posted 09-28-2005 10:28 AM iano has replied
 Message 74 by Legend, posted 09-28-2005 12:43 PM iano has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 53 of 219 (246892)
09-28-2005 7:48 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Legend
09-28-2005 5:51 AM


Legend writes:
The Christian line is that when good things happen to you it's due to God's work but when bad things happen it's because of your own (or your ancestors') bad choices.
God disciplines those who he loves. 'Bad' things can happen by God withholding his ability (providence) to prevent them happening. Pain is used by God for good. Obvious examples are sticking your hand in a fire or a toothache. Other pain might not have as immediately obvious benefit as these but as the saying goes, no pain no gain.
Trawl through Christian testimonies (my first post for example) will often reveal a common denomintor: pain. It might be physical, psycological, emotional whatever....pain tends to get your attention. And God does want to get our attention. If Gods goal is to make us realise our dependance on him would that be achieved in a world where there was no pain, or discomfort or unhappiness.
He didn't make it this way but you bet he will use it to achieve his goal.
Sheesh....you don't know what your missing. If your thinking "what a delusional sap falling for that old fairytale", realise I had 38 years of the other. And it's that which is the fairytale. Note that I'm in a position to compare. Are you?
I wish you were. You would never (and could never) go back. Thank God

"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Legend, posted 09-28-2005 5:51 AM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Legend, posted 09-28-2005 1:03 PM iano has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 54 of 219 (246893)
09-28-2005 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Heathen
09-27-2005 7:13 PM


Wall of Dogma and Tradition
quote:
Unfortunately it seems I hit 'The Christian Wall'
Unfortunately many Christians don't actually read the story of Adam and Eve as it is written. Dogma and tradition make the story for them.
Example: iano keeps mentioning Satan. Satan is not a part of the A&E story. There is a serpent or snake, but no Satan.
Creation is not presented as being created without flaws.
Also in the A&E story God is not presented as being all knowing. You even made that assumption.
So if you take the story as written without Dogma and Tradition, Adam and Eve were content not to eat the fruit until they were given another choice by the snake.
Also if you look at the story, Eve made a reasoned choice.
Genesis 3:6
When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it.
Gaining wisdom is usually considered good in the OT.
If you don't want the kids to have the candy in the bowl, don't put it within their reach. Even human parents know that.

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Phat, posted 09-28-2005 8:14 AM purpledawn has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 55 of 219 (246894)
09-28-2005 7:53 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Legend
09-27-2005 1:53 PM


Maybe this explains Dante
Legend writes:
The problem is that if you have omniscient foreknowledge then that limits the choice of others. If God knows what you're going to do and he cannot be wrong. then you only have one real choice: the one that God knows you're going to take.
Maybe this explains how a freewill Lucifer was foreknown to become Satan. Of course, we have discussed how none of this is found in the Bible, but we DO know that Jesus mentioned Satan, and if any of the Bible is to be believed, it certainly is allright to question it. I believe Jesus, so keep asking questions!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Legend, posted 09-27-2005 1:53 PM Legend has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 56 of 219 (246896)
09-28-2005 7:55 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by iano
09-28-2005 7:35 AM


Independence Day
quote:
The Fall can be subtitled by the sentence "man wanted to be independant of God"
Where in the story of A&E do they show that they wished to be independent of God or that the choice made was because they wanted to be independent of God?

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by iano, posted 09-28-2005 7:35 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by iano, posted 09-28-2005 11:36 AM purpledawn has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 57 of 219 (246899)
09-28-2005 8:01 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Asgara
09-27-2005 11:30 PM


Asgara writes:
The free-will vs. foreknowledge issue doesn't rest solely on the fore-knowledge.
You knowing in advance what you will do is not the same as an omnipotent, sole creator of life knowing what you will do.
Yes, but does this not reemphasize the "Ye shall be as gods", thing? Why does it irk human reasoning so much to admit that God is always going to be in charge no matter what we do? I would much rather spend time "in communion" than "in outer darkness". Even if, deep down, I would rather be free than shackled to God, it is only because I don't know Him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Asgara, posted 09-27-2005 11:30 PM Asgara has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 58 of 219 (246903)
09-28-2005 8:14 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by purpledawn
09-28-2005 7:51 AM


Re: Wall of Dogma and Tradition
Purpledawn writes:
iano keeps mentioning Satan. Satan is not a part of the A&E story. There is a serpent or snake, but no Satan.
Yes, but it is interesting what Jesus says, according to Matthew:
NIV writes:
Matt 7:9-12-- "Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!
Jesus acknowledges that people are evil, as He is addressing his Disciples. In the same moment, He suggests that what kind of a Father would give His son a snake? So...A&E does need to be reconsidered.
PD writes:
If you don't want the kids to have the candy in the bowl, don't put it within their reach. Even human parents know that.
Yes, I see the point. I will have to rethink (or pray for wisdom) concerning this topic. I certainly want my belief to be firsthand from the source and not from dogma and tradition, necessarily.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by purpledawn, posted 09-28-2005 7:51 AM purpledawn has replied

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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 59 of 219 (246908)
09-28-2005 8:26 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by iano
09-28-2005 7:35 AM


choice, but not free will
I ask you to pick a number, either 1 or 2. It can be only one of the two that you pick. I don't know what your going to pick. Your choice.
Then, before you chose, I get foreknowledge as to your choice. How is your choice affected by that knowledge?
Better yet:
I create a computer program that chooses a number one or two. It makes this decision by taking the number of seconds since the first of January 1970 and then looking on a list of pre selected numbers in a file. Each time it makes the decision it looks at the next number in the list. The product of the number of seconds since 1970 and our selected list number is examined. If this final number is odd, the program chooses '1' if the final number is even it chooses '2'.
The system makes choices, and the fact that as the creator I can predict what that choice is does not mean the system is not making a choice. However, the system is not free to choose any number. It simply has to pick a certain number.
Now, if I say that I will ask at 15:00 today I have predetermined that the result will be '1'. Who has made the choice then? Is it me, or the program?
I have a decision, do I serve money, or the Lord? There are many factors that decide which I choose. What I have been taught is right throughout my life, my brain chemistry, psychology, experience, and so on. God knows all of these variables and thus knows what I am going to choose. I still make a decision, still choose, but it is hardly freewill, any more than my creation has freewill.
God set the variables up, then set the program to make the decision. He knows what that decision is going to be. Did God make the decision? God is omnipotent and could thus easily have changed the starting variables so that I would choose whatever he wanted. His choosing the starting variables was actually making the choice for me as much as I was basically choosing for the computer program when I had foreknowledge.
So really, all choices were made by God, and there is no free will.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by iano, posted 09-28-2005 7:35 AM iano has replied

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 Message 68 by iano, posted 09-28-2005 11:50 AM Modulous has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 60 of 219 (246910)
09-28-2005 8:37 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Modulous
09-28-2005 8:26 AM


Re: choice, but not free will
Good post! Calvanism would agree with you, perhaps. It is true that God knows us better than we know ourselves. He knows which of us will choose Him and which of us will reject Him. He would then also know the way in which we choose. Perhaps He draws us towards Him. The question, then, is this: Does He draw ALL unto Himself or does He draw certain ones toward Himself?
In computer lingo, "Many are called yet few chosen" could be set up as X are called, Y are chosen. Is X a definite number or a variable?
Apparantly, Y is a definite number.
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 09-28-2005 06:39 AM

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