Did Adam and eve really have a choice?

Well that it was written by man I don't think needs to be argued. That it is borrowed mythology is a topic that has been discussed here many times. It has been shown sufficiently enough to those of us who have a world view compatible with possibility of biblical errancy. The whole point of that statement was to counter the thought that God is a jerk based on a biblical literalist's definition of God. In other words, the state of God does not depend on your opinion, nor Faith's opinion, nor my opinion, etc. I am pretty sure I remember that some of those things are Biblical. Since I am no theologan, care to offer Book/Chapter/Verse as support?

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No smoking signs by gas stations. No religion in the public square. The government should keep us from being engulfed in flames on earth, and that is pretty much it. -- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

Exactly. Then one conclusion that doesn't involve the world becoming 'non-sensical' AND maintains a monodeity/allfather is that God does not have full knowledge of all that is to come. What claim? The claim that there is an all powerful creator of the universe who knows everything past, present and future yet somehow entities that he has created have the ability to choose independantly of this God's will? That is a heck of a claim and certainly needs some sensible rationale, since it seems - as you said - to be a self-refuting nonsense claim.The only rationale I can think of is that God didn't know everything that would happen when he created everything but then came to know everything later. In which case it must suck to be God, kind of like watching a grand tragedy play, the events in which you are directly responsible for. Bummer.

Perhaps born under the reign of sin, but under the control of Satan? If that is the case, why does God say or The only thing I can see to almost support this Biblically is Have I missed something vital?

Words have more than one meaning, Literal, metaphorical, abstract, etc. Which do you chose? and when do you decide if a word is literal or metaphorical....etc.? Ok, I believe it states in genesis that god gave them no knowledge of Evil either. thus leaving them completely unprepared for the evil temtations of the serpent. Read the title of the thread please... Choice is the subject of the debate... therefore my argument would be a non event if I assumed it existed from the outset. What shows you that God can? (other than than the bible) You are simply not reading my posts. Lets have it in point form eh?
God created/designed man... yes/no?God created/designed the universe an all within it.....yes/no?God foreknew what 'choice' Eve would make....yes/no?God Foreknows all things...yes/no?As God designed Eve, He designed in the inevitability of her choice... yes/no?If you answer yes to the above thsi surely implies THE RESULT WAS INEVITABLE......THERE WAS ONLY ONE POSSIBLE OUTCOME...... THERE WAS NO ALTERNATIVE OUTCOME..... HOW DOES THIS EQUATE TO A 'CHOICE' IN ANY REAL SENSE?

What if God changed the laws of nature, worked a miracle, and then changed them back to what they had been before? Then there would be no way to examine that miracle scientifically. Either you believe it happened or you don't.
Any theological or quasi-logical mind-bending still doesn't make God's existence any more likely. It just shows that it might not be impossible - outside of anything scientifically observable.

Why? For one thing, wouldn't people in the universe notice that, suddenly, the laws of physics changed, and then changed back?And wouldn't you still have the actual miracle to study?

Sound pretty pre-knowledge to me Pre-ordained implies the God set it up to happen - whatever happens happens by his having made sure it will happen. Pre-knowledge implies God gave you the free-choice (within constraints - ie: your perspective of knowing you can chose) and knows the result. The two are not the same thing.The difference are manifested by the central point of it all. Pre-ordained = God is responsible, pre-knowledge = your responsible. Further, pre-ordination means there is no 'you' just a complicated machine. Pre-knowledge means 'you' exists.I'll await your comments but you seem to be wandering the path of determinism here. That philosophy is completely hollow however. It is one that attempts to pull itself up by the bootstraps. Something which cannot succeed I would have thought. (Making something out of nothing) Have you got a link to any reputable scientist who says this could ever be achieved The Laws of Nature exist. They can be observed in action but no one knows (and reputable scientists admit that we can't know) from whence they came or what causes them to be the way they are. Why, for example, does light travel at the speed it does? For all our science these things remain impregnable.On what basis do you contend that God would interact according to the physical laws of nature. You would agree he is not confined by them....?

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

Iano, how can anything predict the future with 100% accuracy if the Universe is not deterministic in nature? Amazingly enough: Hawking radiation - Wikipedia

If you say innocent, by what standards are you measuring? Your standard or Gods. If Gods standard finds us guilty then surely that's the one that counts. Our definition of innocence doesn't count. Otherwise everyone would be innocent. And what are you measuring cock-ups if not by your own definition of cock-up.There's the rub PY. It's what God decides not what you decide. Your displaying an admirable attempt to be independent of God. If it were possible then that would be a rational enough decision. That we can't be but try to be is where the problems begin

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

The trouble we get into here is trying to apply human understanding of the way things are to how God works. "Predict", "Deterministic" etc, are human words that is shackled by things like linear time, space and our own comprehension of how things work. God operates in eternity not time. We have no insight into eternity and how things might work there (although the are analogies that might help to get some kind of grasp on it).To say God sees what we will do in the future is slightly misleading. God sees our past, present and future now. There is no such thing as future with God. All our lives are seen in the present by him. (he calls himself "I AM" indicating the idea of ever-present)You (or I) won't understand it until you are eternal. Hopefully you will be on the 'right' side of the line when that occurs.I didn't see anything in the link which suggested something from nothing. A black hole is not nothing for exampleThis message has been edited by iano, 29-Sep-2005 01:53 PM

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

The crux of it is that any pre-knowledge by any being implies a universe in which all events are fixed in stone. There is just no other way that the future CAN be known with any kind of certainty. My choices seem real to me but in each and every case I only have ONE path down which it is possible for me to go. You just can't escape that. Yes the laws exist.
Yes they can be observed in action.
Yes you might find some reputable scientists who will say that we can nevr know how or why or what causes them to be so.
But then again you will also find any number of reputable scientists who are actively studying these questions and constantly pushing back the boundaries of the unknown. Today they know more about them than they did last week and so on. To claim that they will never know is to claim fore-knowledge yourself. You just can't do that.
So once again I emphatically add the word YET to your statement. Have you got a link to any reputable scientist who says it can't?Unlike God, you or I DON'T know the future so we can't say for sure if it is impossible or not. Given the advances made over the last 50 years and the fact that the level of technology is currently increasing at an exponential rate, I'd say it is highly likely that eventually we will be able to do these things. On the basis that he designed them and implemented them from outside (just like the computer analogy). If he wants to go inside of his creation to an area controlled by his own laws and rules then he would need to operate within those rules or else the whole thing would most likely unravel. (Chances are he would have built in an online editor of some sort to make this kind of stuff easier )
As I said before, to interact with NATURAL you need to use NATURAL. You may well say that SUPERNATURAL can do anything and I still contend that if it does then it becomes NATURAL in doing so.

Man cannot create free-choice because man cannot conceive of a way to do it. The reason God can't do it is because you can't do it. But your not God. In Genesis, God created the heavens and the earth, animals of all sort, man from dust (who he then breath life into)Yet this Creator, who can do such things that we can't, can't give us choice. How do you figure that.The reason for wanting this situation of no choice is singular: Choice means we're culpable - and we would know it. No choice means no culpability. A second rate Laywer would get us off on the Day of Judgement."M'lud, the accused stands before you but it wasn't his fault. His choices were afterall pre-destined by your honour, thus I must insist that his sins be lodged to your account and that you, your honour must be the one to go to hell"This is the Alice in Wonderland logic which gets applied it you follow the no choice thinking to it's natural conclusion(Curiously, the one thing we have to attain in order to be saved is acceptance of our culpability before God. When we realise and accept that fact and realise we are bankrupt before a holy (meaning he never does wrong) God - then we can be saved. By his grace....)"It is by Grace you are saved, not by works, lest any man should boast (of having done anything to save himself)"

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

But even if we remove the word "predict" and assume that God has a special perception of time, every moment of time must still be set in concrete for his knowledge to work. And it's set as he chose it to be.The second answer here might be a better explanation of how something can come from nothing.

I beg to differ. If (as you say) we have free will then God implicitly gave me the right to make any choice I want. In which case I choose to be independent until he reneges on the deal and unfairly revokes my rights like a corrupt politician.If, on the other hand, I am right then he made me the way I am so it's HIS choice not mine.Either way my point standsWhen I die, maybe I will find out there is a God. If so then I will ask him these questions point blank and if he decides to punish me than all that will prove is that I was right all along and he never was worth any of my time.
Then again, maybe he will come up with an explanation that makes it all fall into place.
More likely than not though, when I die I will just be gone, dead, no more etc. and this whole debate will be moot.

GOD created the Circumstances, GOD created the players, GOD set the trap (the tree etc). How can you say God didn't set it up to happen? Iano, you've got your GOD-coloured spectacles on here. The origin of this post was in 'Random God rant' where someone asked why God would allow a child to be born with a horrific disease, that would cause them pain and suffering, and then death. The Christain response was basically that the child was being punished for the 'sins' of it's father. So.."God's Standard" is one where an innocent infant is doomed to hell....nice....not a standard i want to subscribe to. And this is where Iano bows out of rational discussion... ' I'm getting nowhere so I'm now going to change or undermine the meaning of the words I use' bye Iano.. ( do you have an understanding of the way God works? Other than your interpretation of the bible? you seem to speak with some Authority on the subject.) I could easily say 'well it depends on your meaning of the word 'debate'... i think debate means 'ice cream' so we're having an Ice cream now...' would be much of an arguing point though would it? Interesting analogy, and close to what I'm saying (again and again) God created ALL the circumstances to such a degree that he knew what the outcome would be.
Please answer me. WHERE IS THE CHOICE HERE? please tell me what is "Alice in wonderland" about the following statement.
God created ALL the circumstances to such a degree that he knew what the outcome would be. This would suggest there was only one outcome, no alternative. Thus no real choice.Please don't try to infer that i am dodging Culpability... that is not the point here, I do not believe in god, I believe we (to a large extent) control our destiny by virtue of the choices we make.
What I am doing is attempting to show one particular contradiction/illusion (call it what you will) in the bible.. i.e. the illusion of choice at the fall. I feel the story, as told in genesis, suggests there was no choice, thus God has man incorrectly held responsible for 'the fall'.
I hold the opinion that if one is to believe in the bible's word as truth, then Genesis Suggests GOD is responsible for man's fall. Now if you choose to come back on that point with a "well, he's god... you wouldn't understand" type argument don't bother... you'd be wasting bandwidth. (oh wait... you've already done it.)