Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
1 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Did Adam and eve really have a choice?
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 106 of 219 (247289)
09-29-2005 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by iano
09-29-2005 9:16 AM


Re: We meet again
Man cannot create free-choice because man cannot conceive of a way to do it. The reason God can't do it is because you can't do it.
Let me get your position straight in my head here:
God can do two logically contradictory things because God can do anything.
God can be fallibly infallible
God can be omnipresent, but need to ask where Adam is hiding
God can be omnipotent, but powerless to give us strength without pain
God can be benevelont but creates a world with full foreknowledge that millions upon millions will inevitably fall and be damned for it.
I'm not sure I buy it. When God created the universe He knew what was going to happen...He had a choice to have it happen differently. He is God, He can do it anyway He pleases, if He can do the logically impossible, He can ensure that all will be saved and no pain will be felt.
So either
a) God is not benevolent
or
b) God cannot do the logically impossible.
Either God deliberately set us up to fall, or He didn't. If He did, then he is not benevolent. If He did not, then He did not have perfect foresight as to what will happen (after all if He did have the foresight, being benevolent He would do it differently).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by iano, posted 09-29-2005 9:16 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by iano, posted 09-29-2005 12:43 PM Modulous has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 107 of 219 (247297)
09-29-2005 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by Funkaloyd
09-29-2005 9:22 AM


Re: We meet again - (I sure hope it will be up there)
Modulous'link writes:
...the disturbance...
The disturbance...is not nothing, if it exists it is something - a disturbance. What this article showed me is that there is more to know about matter and energy than what we already know. "Something from-something-we-don't-understand-yet-so-call-it-nothing" is not quite what I meant.
The article demonstrates why it's called Quantum theory, not Quantum fact...
But even if we remove the word "predict" and assume that God has a special perception of time, every moment of time must still be set in concrete for his knowledge to work. And it's set as he chose it to be.
" it has been said, with some justification, that no-one really understands General Relativity Theory". If we don't understand something as miniscule as this (in relation to a Creator God) then to try to work your way logically to figure what constraints may apply to omnipotence is not logical. Omnipotence means omnipotence. If God gave us choice (and biblically choice, or rather sufficient choice for God's purpose for us, is all over the place) then it is safe to say he could do it.

"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Funkaloyd, posted 09-29-2005 9:22 AM Funkaloyd has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by crashfrog, posted 09-29-2005 8:09 PM iano has not replied
 Message 146 by nator, posted 10-03-2005 2:43 PM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 108 of 219 (247302)
09-29-2005 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Modulous
09-29-2005 11:49 AM


Re: We meet again
Modulus writes:
God can do two logically contradictory things because God can do anything.
I haven't said or implied this.
God can be fallibly infallible
God is infallible. He never makes a mistake. Our not agreeing with his reasons doesn't mean he makes a mistake. Thats logical
God can be omnipresent, but need to ask where Adam is hiding
Gods reasons for asking are his. It doesn't imply he didn't know where Adam was. Note that he walked with Adam in the garden. Did God in relating to Adam chose to limit his knowledge so as to ensure that Adam felt he wasn't being watched over all the time. So that Adam could make choices. Who makes a wrong choice with a gun to their head. Mystery here alright but not illogical.
God can be omnipotent, but powerless to give us strength without pain
God designed the world in a way that had to be. The only logical way possible. He is wrath as well as love. He is also just. It is understandable just to want God to express his agreeable characteristics. Neurotic but understandable. It is not logical.
God can be benevelont but creates a world with full foreknowledge that millions upon millions will inevitably fall and be damned for it.
What would you have him do. Create automatons? It is logically impossible to create free-willed automatons. Millions will perish through their own free-will. They may, at that time, say they would have been better off never having been born. But how can someone who was never born be better off. They wouldn't have existed to be anything. That too is logically impossible

"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Modulous, posted 09-29-2005 11:49 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by Modulous, posted 09-29-2005 1:39 PM iano has replied
 Message 110 by Modulous, posted 09-29-2005 2:18 PM iano has not replied
 Message 144 by nator, posted 10-03-2005 2:38 PM iano has replied
 Message 145 by nator, posted 10-03-2005 2:40 PM iano has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 109 of 219 (247317)
09-29-2005 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by iano
09-29-2005 12:43 PM


Re: We meet again
I haven't said or implied this.
I think it is implied. God created everything with full knowledge of what will happen, but isn't responsible for it?
God is infallible He never makes a mistake.
Can He make a mistake if He wants to?
Gods reasons for asking are his. It doesn't imply he didn't know where Adam was. Note that he walked with Adam in the garden.
OK, so God is omnipresent and cannot choose to be otherwise. His power is thus limited?
God designed the world in a way that had to be. The only logical way possible.
So God is constrained by logic. He created a universe knowing that he would cause pain and suffering so that a few could join Him in Heaven. All of this was inevitable, and there was no other way for Him to achieve these ends?
OK, that's all good.
However God has basically said the following:
I need to achieve end X. To achieve this end I will create the universe, and man. Man will fall, I'll expel him from Eden and shortly afterwards I will see that the world is full of corruption and destroy all the wicked men (and lots of animals too) and leave only a few. They will repopulate the earth, it will get corrupted again, and eventually I will descend in the kingdom of heaven, cast the devil into hell for a thousand years and the righteous will join us in the kingdom of heaven and I will have acheieved end X.
Since God has to have these things happen for his end to be acheived, surely he is responsible.
But no, this isn't your version. God created the universe so that man would have a choice in what he would do. It doesn't matter that he knew before hand that His creation would fail, fall, and many would be damned. That isn't God's repsonsibility, since it was our choice and He only created us and put us in the Garden, created a walking, talking snake and put temptation right in front of us. He only created us, knowing what would happen, but creating us in that manner anyway. He could have created us with free will, but with the strength and resolve to resist the temptation, but He decided not to, but He isn't responsible because it was our choice, despite the fact that He created our decision making ability - complete with all its evident flaws.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by iano, posted 09-29-2005 12:43 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by iano, posted 09-30-2005 6:58 AM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 110 of 219 (247331)
09-29-2005 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by iano
09-29-2005 12:43 PM


Automatons
What would you have him do. Create automatons? It is logically impossible to create free-willed automatons.
Create automatons? No. I would think it makes more sense for God to create man, and not know what the outcome would be. I'm sure God can choose to not have foreknowledge...but even then things might be a little problematic...he would still be responsible for the decision making ability and willpower of the individual.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by iano, posted 09-29-2005 12:43 PM iano has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 111 of 219 (247422)
09-29-2005 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Heathen
09-28-2005 5:26 PM


Re: We meet again
creavolution writes:
God foreknew what 'choice' Eve would make....yes/no?
God Foreknows all things...yes/no?
As God designed Eve, He designed in the inevitability of her choice... yes/no?
This Website discusses another theological view that maintains that God does NOT know everything....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Heathen, posted 09-28-2005 5:26 PM Heathen has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 112 of 219 (247433)
09-29-2005 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by iano
09-29-2005 12:13 PM


Re: We meet again - (I sure hope it will be up there)
The article demonstrates why it's called Quantum theory, not Quantum fact...
Quantum facts are facts. Quantum theory is the model that explains those facts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by iano, posted 09-29-2005 12:13 PM iano has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 113 of 219 (247565)
09-30-2005 6:58 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by Modulous
09-29-2005 1:39 PM


Re: We meet again
modulous writes:
God created everything with full knowledge of what will happen, but isn't responsible for it?
Iano wanders out of the pub, glares bleary-eyed around the car park for his motorbike. Staggering over to it, he says to himself "Think, hic!, I'll give her a good rip down to the chip hic! shop.
Rounding a tight corner at high speed he loses control, mounts a kerb and ploughs into a woman pushing her kid in a pram. All three killed instantly.
Who do you blame? Yamaha?
Choice Modulous, Choice.
Can He make a mistake if He wants to?
Illogical. No one can deliberately make a mistake
OK, so God is omnipresent and cannot choose to be otherwise. His power is thus limited?
Omnipresent means omnipresent. Jesus is God but in human form was not omnipresent (he couldn't be in two places at once) nor omniescent (there were things he patently didn't know). God as Father knows everything but God has three forms. God walking in the Garden is perhaps God in a form that doesn't know everything. He could conclude in this form that Adam has eaten because of the evidence (not omniesence): Adam said he was naked. There was only one way for Adam to know this. Sin.
So God is constrained by logic. He created a universe knowing that he would cause pain and suffering so that a few could join Him in Heaven. All of this was inevitable, and there was no other way for Him to achieve these ends?
God isn't constrained by logic. He is logic - an aside but worth repeating. He created a situation where people could chose to cause pain and suffering by their actions - if that's what they wanted to do. Choice means accepting the consequences of choice. God accepted the consequences of giving man choice. I suggest there is no other way to achieve giving someone choice other than accepting that they may not chose the way you want. If choice then it is inevitable that choice will be exercised.
Modified Modulous
I WANT to achieve end X RELATIONAL LOVE - JUST LIKE WE HAVE. To achieve this end I will create the universe, and man WITH CHOICE TO LOVE ME OR NOT. Man will fall BECAUSE HE CHOSE TO. I CAN PLAN AHEAD TO ENSURE NO MATTER WHAT CHOICE IS MADE, END X WILL COME ABOUT. RIGHT HE CHOSE AGAINST ME, THE PLAN CARRIES ON. I'll expel him from Eden and shortly afterwards WHEN MANS CHOICE RESULTS IN THE WORLD BEING full of corruption I'LL EXERCISE WRATH (WHICH IS WHAT I AM) destroy all the wicked men (and lots of animals too THEY'LL NEED OIL IN A FEW THOUSAND/BILLION YEARS) and leave only a few WHO ARE RIGHTEOUS. They will repopulate the earth, it will get corrupted again DUE TO EXERCISE OF CHOICE, and eventually I will descend FROM the kingdom of heaven WITH A KEY PART OF MY PLAN - SALVATION BECAUSE IN ADDITION TO WRATH AND JUSTICE I AM ALSO LOVE, cast the devil into hell for a thousand years and the righteous will join us in the kingdom of heaven and I will have acheieved end X.
This message has been edited by iano, 30-Sep-2005 12:00 PM

"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Modulous, posted 09-29-2005 1:39 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by Modulous, posted 09-30-2005 7:34 AM iano has not replied
 Message 125 by crashfrog, posted 09-30-2005 5:47 PM iano has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 114 of 219 (247577)
09-30-2005 7:31 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by purpledawn
09-28-2005 3:24 PM


Re: Independence Day Bump for iano
The story of A&E does not demonstrate a desire for independence from God and you have yet to show that it does.

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by purpledawn, posted 09-28-2005 3:24 PM purpledawn has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 115 of 219 (247579)
09-30-2005 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by iano
09-30-2005 6:58 AM


He chose this reality, not us
Iano wanders out of the pub, glares bleary-eyed around the car park for his motorbike. Staggering over to it, he says to himself "Think, hic!, I'll give her a good rip down to the chip hic! shop.
Rounding a tight corner at high speed he loses control, mounts a kerb and ploughs into a woman pushing her kid in a pram. All three killed instantly.
Who do you blame? Yamaha?
Choice Modulous, Choice
That makes absolutely no sense. Why would I blame Yamaha? Yamaha did not create both you and the bike. Yamaha are not omnipotent. Yamaha did not create your choice, did not create your discretion, your personality, your brain etc
Illogical. No one can deliberately make a mistake
Two reasons why this is erroneous. 1. Yes they can. One can deliberately set up conditions that would cause them to make a mistake. I could close my eyes whilst driving, knowing that doing so was a mistake.
Second - you are applying your human and fallible standards to God. You warned us against doing this.
Omnipresent means omnipresent.
And green means green.
He created a situation where people could chose to cause pain and suffering by their actions - if that's what they wanted to do.
He created a situation where He knew that they would choose to cause pain and suffering. Could He not have created a diferent situation, or is God's power limited?
God accepted the consequences of giving man choice.
Right. So God is responsible for all the pain and misery in the world. That's what I've pretty much been driving at. How can we be responsible? How can Adam/Eve be responsible? They were merely following a script written by God.
I suggest there is no other way to achieve giving someone choice other than accepting that they may not chose the way you want.
I agree. However, if you give someone this choice, and you have the power to create any scenario possible, including scenarios where the information received by Adam/Eve would lead to a different choice being made, or where their brain is wired a little differently...why choose the scenario where you know, before they do, that they will fail their tests and cause suffering and pain to countless numbers of souls.
I WANT to achieve end X RELATIONAL LOVE - JUST LIKE WE HAVE. To achieve this end I will create the universe, and man WITH CHOICE TO LOVE ME OR NOT. Man will fall BECAUSE HE CHOSE TO. I CAN PLAN AHEAD TO ENSURE NO MATTER WHAT CHOICE IS MADE, END X WILL COME ABOUT. RIGHT HE CHOSE AGAINST ME, THE PLAN CARRIES ON. I'll expel him from Eden and shortly afterwards WHEN MANS CHOICE RESULTS IN THE WORLD BEING full of corruption I'LL EXERCISE WRATH (WHICH IS WHAT I AM) destroy all the wicked men (and lots of animals too THEY'LL NEED OIL IN A FEW THOUSAND/BILLION YEARS) and leave only a few WHO ARE RIGHTEOUS. They will repopulate the earth, it will get corrupted again DUE TO EXERCISE OF CHOICE, and eventually I will descend FROM the kingdom of heaven WITH A KEY PART OF MY PLAN - SALVATION BECAUSE IN ADDITION TO WRATH AND JUSTICE I AM ALSO LOVE, cast the devil into hell for a thousand years and the righteous will join us in the kingdom of heaven and I will have acheieved end X.
Modified again:
I WANT to achieve end X RELATIONAL LOVE - JUST LIKE WE HAVE. To achieve this end I will create the universe, and man WITH CHOICE TO LOVE ME OR NOT, I will know before I create man which decision he will make, and have the ability to create man differently, or to tell him some vital piece of knowledge that would mean he would choose differently. Man will fall BECAUSE I made a faulty product, knowing full well it was a faulty product and I didn't do anything to rectify my clearly faulty product, I will then punish the victims of my shoddy design by telling them that it was their fault because they had freedom to choose anyway they wanted. I CAN PLAN AHEAD TO ENSURE NO MATTER WHAT CHOICE IS MADE, END X WILL COME ABOUT, since it doesn't matter to my ends what choce is made, I'm a right royal bastard for choosing to create the situation which involves the most suffering. RIGHT HE CHOSE AGAINST ME as I knew he would before I even started this farce, THE PLAN CARRIES ON. I'll expel him from Eden and shortly afterwards WHEN my crappy design of man and lack of leadership results IN THE WORLD BEING full of corruption I'LL EXERCISE WRATH (Because I foresaw that I would, and I now have no choice in the matter) destroy all the wicked men (and lots of animals too THEY'LL NEED OIL IN A FEW THOUSAND/BILLION YEARS and I know that they'll NEED oil, we couldn't have them create bigger and better ways to destroy my creation if I didn't provide them suitable ammunition in the form of the remnants of my last creation destroying efforts) and leave only a few WHO ARE RIGHTEOUS but who are sinners, instead of ending the farce here, I will allow it to continue knowing that corruption will seep back into the world, and eventually I'll have to descend in the form of man and have myself nailed up. They will repopulate the earth, it will get corrupted again DUE TO my EXERCISE OF CHOICE, and eventually I will descend FROM the kingdom of heaven WITH A KEY PART OF MY PLAN - SALVATION for the ones I knew would be saved an eternity ago, but damnation for all those I created to be damned BECAUSE IN ADDITION TO WRATH AND entrapment I AM ALSO pointlessly vindictave, cast the devil into hell for a thousand years and the righteous will join us in the kingdom of heaven and I will have acheieved end X - who cares about the totally heartless way that I acheived it, I'm friggin God, the Omega baby

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by iano, posted 09-30-2005 6:58 AM iano has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Faith, posted 09-30-2005 7:42 AM Modulous has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 116 of 219 (247584)
09-30-2005 7:42 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by Modulous
09-30-2005 7:34 AM


Re: He chose this reality, not us
Yes, He did choose this reality, but are you complaining about it really? People who don't like it have the option of being saved from it. But most people wouldn't have it any other way, really have no desire to be innocent as Adam and Eve were.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by Modulous, posted 09-30-2005 7:34 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by Modulous, posted 09-30-2005 7:58 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 118 by paisano, posted 09-30-2005 8:23 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 119 by Legend, posted 09-30-2005 8:28 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 121 by purpledawn, posted 09-30-2005 9:43 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 122 by Heathen, posted 09-30-2005 11:58 AM Faith has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 117 of 219 (247589)
09-30-2005 7:58 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by Faith
09-30-2005 7:42 AM


Re: He chose this reality, not us
Yes, He did choose this reality, but are you complaining about it really?
Am I complaining that between the choices
1. Paradise, living alongside God in a wonderous Paradise with no work and just happiness and wonder.
2. Struggle, pain, suffering, misery, death, eternal damnation.
God decided that number 2 was the reality for us. Yes, I think I am.
But most people wouldn't have it any other way, really have no desire to be innocent as Adam and Eve were.
Personally, I think this is a pile of crap. Almost universally people look back to their childhood innocence with longing...it usually only where the childhood was filled with struggle, pain, suffering, misery and death where people don't long for childhood, since it wasn't innocence.
I would like to see if you have any basis for your belief that most people would rather work most days, and ceaselessly struggle, just to keep them and their family alive than to live in paradise. Bare very keenly in mind that America is not most people...the wages are quite high, so many people don't have to work so hard to keep alive. Most people are not in that position.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Faith, posted 09-30-2005 7:42 AM Faith has not replied

  
paisano
Member (Idle past 6423 days)
Posts: 459
From: USA
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 118 of 219 (247595)
09-30-2005 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by Faith
09-30-2005 7:42 AM


Re: He chose this reality, not us
But most people wouldn't have it any other way, really have no desire to be innocent as Adam and Eve were.
I don't agree.
In a way, this comment goes to the heart of the disconnect between theists of the more ardent sort, and skeptics. The ardent theists tend to assume that if someone rejects their religion, it can only be out of mendacity or a desire for moral anarchy.
They seem to have the greatest difficulty in getting the concept that the skeptics might be quite well disposed to the idea of a morally ordered universe, if there were sufficient evidence.
The skeptics reject the religious claims not out of mendacity or hostility, but because they have examined the claims and regard them as unsupported by the evidence and/or logically incoherent.
A lot of theists (not all) just don't seem to get this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Faith, posted 09-30-2005 7:42 AM Faith has not replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 119 of 219 (247598)
09-30-2005 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by Faith
09-30-2005 7:42 AM


Re: He chose this reality, not us
Faith writes:
Yes, He did choose this reality, but are you complaining about it really?
I'm personally not complaining - just pointing out that since he chose this reality for us then he cannot be loving and benevolent, as Christians and most of the NT claim.

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Faith, posted 09-30-2005 7:42 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by Phat, posted 09-30-2005 8:39 AM Legend has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 120 of 219 (247600)
09-30-2005 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by Legend
09-30-2005 8:28 AM


Re: He chose this reality, not us
We always DO have the right to complain. Prayer is not always so formal and nice.
modulus writes:
I would like to see if you have any basis for your belief that most people would rather work most days, and ceaselessly struggle, just to keep them and their family alive than to live in paradise. Bare very keenly in mind that America is not most people...the wages are quite high, so many people don't have to work so hard to keep alive. Most people are not in that position.
Good point.
Perhaps we choose our daily reality as much as we can do so.
Each day we choose our behavior.
If I prayed every day,communing with God, perhaps I would not be so likely to stumble bleary eyed from a pub and cause an accident. But what if I or someone did kill two innocent people. What if those people had not yet made up their mind about the reality of God?
Would it matter if God foreknew their demise?
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 09-30-2005 08:42 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Legend, posted 09-30-2005 8:28 AM Legend has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024