Why must we believe *before* we die?

A good example of how God reveals Himself..but I see no evidence that the others, some at least (probably John) did not already know the revelation. Judas, apparantly, did not. We see no evidence that any of the other disciples were less enlightened than Peter.
The Church was built upon the rock of revealed knowledge through the Holy Spirit...not on Peter the Apostle. Then again, this is a whole nother topic! Nice of you to be sensitive to us...I am sometimes a bit too abrasive also!
Alas....EvC is a play in and of itself, anyway! This message has been edited by Phatboy, 09-18-2005 09:02 AM

Don't know if it's been answered so already but here's my tuppence worth. It's all to do with Love. We are made in his image and likeness so it is possible for us to understand why it should be the way it is.I have a cat. I like stroking the cat from time to time. The cat has her own mind. Sometimes she enjoys being stroked, sometimes she couldn't bothered and will steer clear of me. Her choice.Now I can grab her, grip her in my lap and stroke her because I want to despite what she wants - because I'm able to do that. But any enjoyment I get is a sham. There is no enjoyment in it for her either. No choice = No love.And love between humans is the same. Is a rich, ageing billionaire receiving freely-given love from a 20-something trophy wife or is she there because of the rewards?And it is the same with God. God can only pour out his God-sized love on those who chose to receive it. God can only receive love from humans who have freely chosen to give it (and God shows them how to do that - they need teaching)So, an apparent catch-22. We can't truly know and then love him without 'seeing' him first...how can you believe in something you don't know exists - that's irrational. But he can't directly reveal himself to us without making it impossible for us not to believe him. If we have no choice then the whole thing falls apartThe resolution of the Catch-22 is the bit in the middle called "an act of faith". Someones got to blink. And it's God who does the blinking.... He looks at our hearts and knows what our hearts desire is. If our hearts want him (even if the 'want' isn't couched in our own minds as "I want God) then draw us towards himself he will - draw but not reveal so as to destroy our choice.At some point a person may come to realise a need of him and even though they still don't believe he exists, they have a desire for him (even though it still isn't framed as "I want God)For every bit of our hearts that desire him God puts in a hook of love and starts reeling in. And if we desire to pull away the pull away we can (the hook rips out and we feel pain: guilt, shame, despair). Our role, if there is any role for us is not to resist, to allow ourselves to be drawn. Drawn towards light, goodness, kindness, gentleness. If our hearts yearn for these things. If it despairs at the ugliness, deceit and pride every single one of us knows resides inside us, then that is God working on us.Eventually the person may arrive at a position similar to the man at the end of Romans 7. The voyage is almost over. Soon perhaps to be a fish pulled out of the water.And a very thankful, joyful and happey little fish they will be too

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

How does Hell figure into the analogies that you give? I'm sure that you wouldn't punish your cat if she'd rather spend her time chasing butterflies than being stroked.

I must admit reading that analogy - the thought that came to my mind was that when the cat don't want to be stroked - he would set fire to it!/Soren

The analogies had to do with explaining why we must chose before we see God. Love can't exist without choice.God isn't only Love though. He is Wrath too. He is also Just(ice). All these attributes (or consider them forces) must be satisfied. This doesn't mean just equilibrium (where one force balances out the other - but there can be tension and compression) but at complete satisfaction, completely relaxed, under no strain.God's Justice cannot (no more than can our imperfect Justice systems) be satisfied in the presence of sin (crime). A criminal must be convicted in order for Justice to be satisfied. Conviction too, must bring punishment in order for Wrath to be satisfied. But God is also Love. That too needs to be satisfied. So God made a plan whereby he could satisfy Love but not wrench Justice and Wrath out of shape. He decided to allow the conviction and punishment for crimes to be carried out on a suitable substitute. Jesus.Hell is 'simply' a place for those who chose to have Gods justice and wrath expressed on themselves instead of a substitute. There won't be flames either - that's a biblical analogy used to express the horror of it to people in terms which they might grasp. Like who'd want to burn eternally?I think the very worst thing about Hell for those who will be there is...regret. Complete and utter....regret. They will know what they have missed out on, they will recognise that they were the ones to say 'NO'. They will regret ignoring God's call.... forever.Which is kind of why I write what I do...even if I'm not going there. I wouldn't wish it on worst enemy (if I had one)

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

A fish out of water is not happy, joyful, or thankful--no matter how much you try to convince it that it is really better to be on dry land, that dry land is where all the good things are. He's out of his element. Such is the condition of mankind. No matter how unarguably for the better this loss of ego (or "pride") you describe may be, we prefer the ego.

What a joy it is to see a bad metaphor being turned into a wet towel. Well done!

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We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. - Richard Dawkins

You're:a) presuming the fishes optimal place is truly in the water.b) forgetting who the angler is. Of course you do.... "I am god". That's the story of the Bible. Man trying to be on the throne.This message has been edited by iano, 29-Sep-2005 04:18 PM

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

I guess this is where the analogy breaks down, since a fish's optimal place IS the water. Being a god and having a throne is far beyond my ambition. I just want to be a self, an individual. The Buddhists or some such people have compared the return to the Absolute to a drop of water falling into the ocean. That is not my idea of a treat. One might as well be dead.When one is an individual, one has this "pride" that you are talking about, since all pride need consist of is affirming "I'm me;I'm not you."

I could never see the point of being a drop in the ocean either. What motivates the Buddhists anyway?However, God is completely and fully present at every point, and can be completely and fully embraced by anyone who truly seeks Him. Now to my mind that is worth it. Even worth all the work it requires. Even worth dying to self for.

Whatever that means. Sounds like a paradox.

only good people are given salvation?since when?

Did anybody see that movie 'Constantine' with Keanu Reeves?In it, as a young man (or boy, it's been a while since I saw it), he dies, but is revived in an ambulance about 30 seconds later. The thing is, while he is dead, he is sentenced to hell, and the 30 seconds he spends there changes his life. When he is revived, he doesn't just believe that God/Heaven exist, he KNOWS it.Here is one of the major conflicts: he doesn't BELIEVE in God, but instead KNOWS that God exists, which is different. Belief as I understand it is holding something as true without direct evidence, whereas to know something is to have observed it as true. God wants us to choose him because we love and long for him, not because it has become blatantly obvious after we die that he exists. If we only choose God after we KNOW he is there, that's not faith, it's observation.

I think I fell into Christian jargon there. Lost the theme of the conversation even in the effort to stay with the theme. Although it may be getting off topic, I guess I should at least say that dying to self is not the same as losing one's identity, as I now realize that is what you were talking about. It's shorthand for Jesus' sayings:Mat 10:38 And he that takes not his cross, and follows after me, is not worthy of me. Mat 10:39 He that finds his life shall lose it: and he that loses his life for my sake shall find it. Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Since forever.