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Author Topic:   Why must we believe *before* we die?
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 76 of 302 (247557)
09-30-2005 6:31 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by robinrohan
09-30-2005 6:13 AM


Re: No need for hell
Robin writes:
If everybody is equally bad, then He might as well let us all off. No need for hell.
You don't go to a court expecting to be let off. Expecting grace. You expect to be convicted and punished. God is just and God is wrath and God is love. All apply - not just the bits you'd like to apply. For God to 'let off' would mean justice is thwarted. Paradox
There are no paradoxes with God. God cannot let off. He can only save. He will save anyone who reaches out their hand. He will grasp it and never let go - not even when we sin again. Once he holds that's it - no matter what. As the old Provisional IRA recruitment motto went: "Once in, never out"

"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by robinrohan, posted 09-30-2005 6:13 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by robinrohan, posted 09-30-2005 7:56 AM iano has replied

Funkaloyd
Inactive Member


Message 77 of 302 (247558)
09-30-2005 6:36 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by iano
09-30-2005 5:17 AM


Re: The blight man was born for
iano writes:
At the moment your a guitar that's out of tune. The songs can be played but they sound discordant, sullied as they are by sin. God doesn't stop you from being a guitar. He just tunes you up.
Unless you don't accept him in time, in which case:

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by iano, posted 09-30-2005 5:17 AM iano has not replied

Funkaloyd
Inactive Member


Message 78 of 302 (247562)
09-30-2005 6:48 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by iano
09-30-2005 6:05 AM


Re: Faith
iano writes:
There was only one born and who remained sinless.
"Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by iano, posted 09-30-2005 6:05 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by iano, posted 09-30-2005 7:38 AM Funkaloyd has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 79 of 302 (247564)
09-30-2005 6:58 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Omnivorous
09-29-2005 9:30 PM


Dissolving in Ocean vs Living in Heaven
I could never see the point of being a drop in the ocean either. What motivates the Buddhists anyway?
Peace. Love. Joy. Kindness. Freedom from attachment to passing sorrows.
It was a comment on how anyone can desire to lose one's identity as a drop in the ocean, not on the moral precepts and practice of Buddhism.
The ocean could not exist without drops of water.
And what is it that motivates a person to lose his identity by merging into it? Are you following the discussion here?
What will you do in Heaven, Faith?
Love God. Be immensely happy.
This message has been edited by Faith, 09-30-2005 06:59 AM
This message has been edited by Faith, 09-30-2005 07:01 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Omnivorous, posted 09-29-2005 9:30 PM Omnivorous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Parasomnium, posted 09-30-2005 7:09 AM Faith has replied
 Message 95 by Omnivorous, posted 09-30-2005 10:09 AM Faith has replied
 Message 130 by tsig, posted 10-02-2005 5:28 PM Faith has not replied

Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 80 of 302 (247571)
09-30-2005 7:09 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Faith
09-30-2005 6:58 AM


Re: Dissolving in Ocean vs Living in Heaven
Faith writes:
It was a comment on how anyone can desire to lose one's identity as a drop in the ocean
Don't you ever get tired of yourself?
Don't get me wrong, I don't mean that as a deprecating remark about your personality, but as a possible example of the motivation you asked about.

We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. - Richard Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Faith, posted 09-30-2005 6:58 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Faith, posted 09-30-2005 7:24 AM Parasomnium has not replied
 Message 231 by Phat, posted 10-06-2005 10:10 AM Parasomnium has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 81 of 302 (247572)
09-30-2005 7:22 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by robinrohan
09-30-2005 6:11 AM


Re: The blight man was born for
Heaven is the place where all the paradoxes are supposed to unravel--one is both a self and not a self; God is both all-powerful and all-good and yet contains or creates or permits evil; people are both free and pre-destined; what God says is good is good and yet God also obeys some higher laws of goodness . . . and many other impossibilites.
Trying to figure out what you mean here. I think there's a confusion between different senses of some words, but I'm not sure.
Both a self and not a self? No-one loses his personal identity in Heaven. The "self" that we "lose" in the Christian life is the fallen nature, the selfish self, to become like Christ who gave Himself for others. While we're here most of us don't get very close to that state of perfection.
"God is both all-powerful and all-good and yet contains or creates or permits evil." In English, especially King James English, there is "evil" in the sense of moral wrong or sin, and there is "evil" in the sense of misfortune or calamity. God cannot commit the first but permits it in his sentient creatures. {Edit: And the idea is that this will ultimately lead to a higher good.} The second kind of evil, or calamity, is the moral consequence of the first. There is no paradox or contradiction.
"people are both free and pre-destined" Yes, this can be a hard one for us, but I think it's somewhat resolved if you understand that from OUR point of view we are free to choose, while from God's point of view we are pre-destined to salvation or not, and this is proved by our choosing it or not.
"what God says is good is good and yet God also obeys some higher laws of goodness" I don't understand this. God IS all the laws of goodness. He doesn't "obey" anything except in the sense that He can't contradict Himself.
God's nature is beyond us. Why should we be able to understand the Being who made everything including ourselves?
This message has been edited by Faith, 09-30-2005 07:35 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by robinrohan, posted 09-30-2005 6:11 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by robinrohan, posted 09-30-2005 8:12 AM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 82 of 302 (247575)
09-30-2005 7:24 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by Parasomnium
09-30-2005 7:09 AM


Re: Dissolving in Ocean vs Living in Heaven
Don't you ever get tired of yourself?
Don't get me wrong, I don't mean that as a deprecating remark about your personality, but as a possible example of the motivation you asked about.
Does anyone truly seek self-annihilation? Isn't that just contrary to the way we are made? Of course there are suicides but that's not exactly a positive motivation.
I get very tired of myself in the sense that I want to change many things about myself, but total annihilation is not something I can imagine desiring. Can you really?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Parasomnium, posted 09-30-2005 7:09 AM Parasomnium has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Ben!, posted 09-30-2005 2:59 PM Faith has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 83 of 302 (247580)
09-30-2005 7:38 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by Funkaloyd
09-30-2005 6:48 AM


Re: Faith
Which is probably why I said he was sinless rather than good. There are no good people. Only bad people who think they're good and bad people who know they're bad.
The Gospel is good news for bad people (who realise they're bad)
Sinless means righteous before God. Jesus, son of God was righteous - always. A Christian is 'only' an adopted son of God. They wear a cloak of righteousness. Jesus cloak
And he has one waiting for everyone who would don it

"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Funkaloyd, posted 09-30-2005 6:48 AM Funkaloyd has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Phat, posted 09-30-2005 7:40 AM iano has not replied
 Message 85 by Faith, posted 09-30-2005 7:46 AM iano has replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 84 of 302 (247582)
09-30-2005 7:40 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by iano
09-30-2005 7:38 AM


Re: Faith
This makes sense to me!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by iano, posted 09-30-2005 7:38 AM iano has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 85 of 302 (247586)
09-30-2005 7:46 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by iano
09-30-2005 7:38 AM


Who is good
There was only one born and who remained sinless.
"Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God."
Which is probably why I said he was sinless rather than good. There are no good people.
But Jesus was claiming to be God when He said this. Being sinless IS being good. Jesus was good. Jesus is God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by iano, posted 09-30-2005 7:38 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by iano, posted 09-30-2005 8:03 AM Faith has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 86 of 302 (247588)
09-30-2005 7:56 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by iano
09-30-2005 6:31 AM


Re: No need for hell
He will save anyone who reaches out their hand
There's your definition of goodness. Those who "reach out their hand" are good; those who don't aren't.
This reaching-out-of-the hand is obviously of paramount importance--moral importance.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by iano, posted 09-30-2005 6:31 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by iano, posted 09-30-2005 8:13 AM robinrohan has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 87 of 302 (247591)
09-30-2005 8:03 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by Faith
09-30-2005 7:46 AM


Re: Who is good
Faith writes:
But Jesus was claiming to be God when He said this. Being sinless IS being good. Jesus was good. Jesus is God.
I know. I wanted to avoid a debate about Good (absolute) and good (subjective) which I've found to end up in a dead end before. I wanted to introduce what I felt was something that falls into the mechanism of salvaton which is not goodness but righteousness.
Jesus wasn't good, he IS Good.
If you catch my drift

"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Faith, posted 09-30-2005 7:46 AM Faith has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 88 of 302 (247593)
09-30-2005 8:12 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Faith
09-30-2005 7:22 AM


Paradoxes about God
The "self" that we "lose" in the Christian life is the fallen nature, the selfish self
The self is selfish by its very nature. To be a distinct individual automatically includes the quality of self-ishness. The only way to lose one's selfishness is to be blended into a soul-stew of many, wherein the integrity of the self is lost.
God cannot commit the first but permits it in his sentient creatures.
Here's the conundrum. There is no need for any distinction between "permitting" and "doing." What God permits must be good; if not, He is not good.
from OUR point of view we are free to choose
One point of view has to be the real point of view. That would be God's, presumably, not ours.
God IS all the laws of goodness
No, no, we can't be making these comments about God that make it seem as if He's not a being in an attempt to smooth over the logical problem. God is a being not a law. So a moral law is either right because God says so, or God is adhering to some moral system that he did not invent. If the moral law is right because God says so, then it is subjective on God's part. He might very well have decided on the opposite law--say, "Thou shalt murder." But if he is proclaiming what is right because it is right by its very nature, irregardless of what God thinks, then God is adhering to a system that is above Him.
Why should we be able to understand the Being who made everything including ourselves
If we cannot understand this Being, then we have no way of affirming what he wants or doesn't want.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Faith, posted 09-30-2005 7:22 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Faith, posted 09-30-2005 2:39 PM robinrohan has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 89 of 302 (247594)
09-30-2005 8:13 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by robinrohan
09-30-2005 7:56 AM


Re: No need for hell
Robin writes:
There's your definition of goodness. Those who "reach out their hand" are good; those who don't aren't.
Those who reach out their hand are desparate. They've realised what they are before God. End of Romans Chapter 7 verse 9 to end. See anything you recognise about yourself?
This reaching-out-of-the hand is obviously of paramount importance--moral importance.
No it's not. The hand that is reached out is 'Le Fin' at the end of the movie. It's the process that causes the hand to be reached out that is of importance. It relies on God convicting the person of sin. Salvation is from God not from man. The person will be saved unless they chose to wiggle their way out of it. Denial is not just a river in Egypt...
Are you rotten or aren't you? Look at your heart, look at the selfish thoughts, look at the lust. Then tell yourself "I'm not such a bad fellow - there are (Adam pointing the finger at Eve) worse than me" That's wiggling off the hook.

"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by robinrohan, posted 09-30-2005 7:56 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by robinrohan, posted 09-30-2005 8:25 AM iano has replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 90 of 302 (247596)
09-30-2005 8:23 AM


WHY MUST WE BELIEVE *BEFORE*WE DIE?
Robinrohan writes:
Heaven is the place where all the paradoxes are supposed to unravel--one is both a self and not a self; God is both all-powerful and all-good and yet contains or creates or permits evil; people are both free and pre-destined; what God says is good is good and yet God also obeys some higher laws of goodness . . .If everybody is equally bad, then He might as well let us all off. No need for hell. The analogy seems a little confused. If we are fish, then the water corresponds to worldly evil, or something of that sort. Dry land equals heaven. So heaven can't be water....If everybody is equally bad, then He might as well let us all off. No need for hell.
Iano writes:
"The Gospel is Good News for bad people and Bad News for good people"....God doesn't create evil, he creates choice. Consider the following: Heat exists, Cold doesn't. Cold is simply the absence of heat. Light exists, Darkness doesn't, Darkeness is simply the absence of light. Good exists, evil doesn't. Evil in simply the absence of Good. When God is excluded, evil follows. God doesn't obey higher laws, He is these things. Don't forget wrath and justice. Don't fall for the line God is Love - period.
Analogies DO have to be seen in context.
NIV writes:
Isa 5:20-21
20 Woe to those who call evil good
and good evil,
who put darkness for light
and light for darkness,
who put bitter for sweet
and sweet for bitter.
21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes
and clever in their own sight.
In context, this would seem confusing lined up next to the scrip that says:
NIV writes:
Gen 3:22
22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."
Unless we understand who "us" is. Job gives insight....
NIV writes:
Job 1:6-7-- One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them. The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?" Satan answered the LORD, "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it."
Us must evidently refer to Heavenly angels and the LORD. Now...Revelation speaks of a conflict.
NIV writes:
Rev 12:7-9--And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great dragon was hurled down-that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
So in a "literal" or parable type of context, God and His angels are of one Spirit and Satan and his angels are of another.
For those of you who suggest that it is Gods fault, I suppose that in a sense He created all things. Remember, however, that He never created the War. There would have been no war without rebellion. Rebellion, by definition, is trying to be God instead of letting God be God.
Trying to be God seems to me to be a type of allowable free will in an angelic sense.

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