Why must we believe *before* we die?

It is not I who is trying to wiggle off the hook--at least not the logical hook. There has to be some distinction between those who are damned and those who are saved, unless you are suggesting it's a lottery.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In an angelic sense there is a difference.Right now, we just is as we is. Perhaps a question:Do we choose our destiny in life?I have heard it said that "we become the decisions that we make."What does this mean to you?

[crooked grin]
Don't worry about me, iano. I'll be alright.
[/crooked grin]

The distinction is how a person reacts to Gods call. God will tell us what we ought to do via conscience. Not must do. Ought to do. We chose to listen or not. Sometimes we will sometimes we won't. In that we are all in the same boat.God convicts (convinces) a person when they don't do what they ought. Guilty conscience, shame, etc. Now logic. Logically we can examine our conscience and see the guilt as guilt. Or we make excuses and bury the guilt. This we all do to. Both things. God continues to call. Pleasure and warm feelings when we do good, guilt, shame when we don't. Guilt piled upon guilt.We can do one of two things with this as the pressure builds of guilt piled on guilt:we can either continue to bury, deny, make excuses. This causes turmoil, neurosis, hardening of position (heart).Or there comes a point when a person looks at themselves and sees things for what they are and faces facts. They see that they are rottenEither routes are possible. The choice is the persons. Face up to the reality or not. If they do face up to it then comes despair. That is what the action of God may bring them to. To despair. Not because he wants to but because he loves us. Love isn't soft or soppy. Love can be very tough. This is serious business. The most serious of all. Eternally seriousAnd the only place for a person to go when they reach the truth about themselves is nowhere. Nowhere to run, no escape from what they are, no ability from within to resolve things. The person who thought they were on the throne, in control of their own destiny, who thought the world was their oyster - comes crashing down in the face of this reality. "Everybody my think I'm a great chap. Everybody likes me. But inside I know what goes on. I know the thoughts I have about people. Boy if people actually knew the perversion that is inside me they would puke"There are only one choice to escape from oneself when one has reached the end of oneself. Suicide. Or cry out to an unbelieved, unknown God - the only person who can possibly help.It is at this point, the point when the reliance on self is destroyed, will God step in. Only when a person acknowledges that they need God can God do anything with them.And for anyone who does cry out to him, he will answer. Guarenteed None are excluded except those who exclude themselves.

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

Yes, I am following the discussion closely. I never join a thread without reading every prior post.Your inability to imagine the Buddhist desire to "lose...identity" is culturally determined, as is your Calvinism, as is your incredulity about some scientific theories.According to the Buddha, your "identity" is an illusion. The power to change or destroy that identity--e.g., by tyrants and cults--has existed here on earth for millennia.What do you believe is the relationship between your "identity" and your "soul"? Are they one and the same? "Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens."

Jesus said "I am the way the truth and the life nobody comes to the father except through me"Unless it's through him you will NOT be alright. When and if ever you feel you have any interest in doing so then close your eyes and ask God to help you do so.If you ever get in a bad situation and it looks like curtains don't mess around. Ask him.All you have get to is the end of yourself in order to ask from your heart. And if you do he will respondDon't ever forget this....okay?

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

OK. So how a person reacts to God's call determines their level of goodness or badness.Only good people go to heaven. I didn't say "perfect." I said good.

I, for one, think iano put it quite beautifully there. This is what Christianity (and most religions) are all about: *Desperation*. The vast majority of born again Christians I know, converted during a serious personal crisis: serious illness, bereavement, bankruptcy, etc. When they couldn't rely on themselves or others any longer they turned to the last desperate recourse, God.

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

A person reacts to Gods call based on a willingness to deal with reality. Common sense. A sense that this makes sense. Hitler used Blitzkreig as a tactic not because it was good but because it made sense. He dealt with the realityI don't think I can stress how filthy a person is in sin when 'in' Adam. God's level of goodness looking down on our 'goodness' us is like a person standing on the moon trying to differentiate which grain of sand on a beach is closest to him."All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God""All your (self)righteousness are as filthy rags"Good just doesn't cut it with God. He's no fool

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

Yeah, I hear even Pascal got sent Down for gambling.

Well, that's not how the Christian life goes. It's the fallen nature that is selfish, but not being selfish is not losing your identity, it's simply loving, loving God, loving others, loving truth, and you need your identity in order to do that. Yes, it is good that He permits His creatures to choose for or against Him, and I believe that this will ultimately amount to an even greater good that we can't even imagine yet. No doubt, but we don't have the capacity to think things through from God's point of view but are stuck with our own, and the effort to understand God's only confuses the idea of predestination. I think it was Luther who said that predestination shouldn't be taught to unbelievers and new believers as it only generates conflict and confusion, and is only really of use to those who have believed for some time, and then it can become a source of reassurance of belonging to God. Oh come on. This is not saying He's not a Being. It's said in the same spirit as the Bible says "the Gentiles are a law unto themselves" [Romans 2:14]. The point is that God didn't just invent the laws that run the universe, they are part of His moral nature. And what if the moral law simply expresses His very nature? Again, what if the moral law is intrinsic to His very nature and what He is proclaiming is nothing but His own moral nature? But He has revealed to us all we need as far as knowing His will for us goes. We don't have to understand Him beyond that.

Reading everything is not the same thing as following the argument.If there is a cultural discontinuity such that it makes it hard for a Westerner to understand the mindset of an Easterner, and vice versa, how is it that you feel so eminently qualified to pass judgment on such things?It is possible that the idea of annihilation as the end goal of Buddhist practice is simply a misunderstanding, due to the ambiguity of language.Any attempt to answer your question about soul and identity from the position you have set up here would only dig us deeper into such ambiguities, especially considering the degree of hostility you evince.This message has been edited by Faith, 09-30-2005 02:51 PM

Honestly, I think in some sense everybody does. I would submit that happiness is often that moment when we "lose ourselves" and become "engrossed" in what we're doing. Great climbers love climbing, because they "lose themselves" in the climbing, they have to give "100% concentration". Same with baseball. Same with chess, etc etc.Annihiliating the "self" doesn't mean losing experience; it means changing the fundamental way "you" view life and the world. (I think) I think clearly the fact that some people can do it, be so peaceful and in control, is an interesting reason to honestly and openly try to answer this question. Not just by thinking, but by attempting--by doing. It's one of those things that don't happen by thinking about it--you have to do it. I think if you're equating self-annihilation in the Buddhist sense to suicide, you don't have any concept of what it is to lose self-conscious and still live. Or to lose the function of discrimination of objects. It's not a swipe at you. But I think this comment suggests that.I think it's really worthwhile to investigate. Even just to find out more about how people work.BenP.S. I didn't read all previous posts; I'm jumping with no holds barred

What is MEANT by "annihilation" is what the conversation is about. If it means being absorbed in what you are doing, that is very much what I said it means in Christianity to lose the fallen "self" in loving. And therefore this is merely a semantic quibble.

True, but universal--as applicable to you as to me. I do not think you can advance an argument that I cannot follow--I may disagree, or find the argument weak, invalid, or offensive, but I can follow it. Years of life and study in East Asia, including residence in a Buddhist monastery and marriage to a Buddhist, as well as growing up in the Bible Belt of the U.S. while attending Baptist, Methodist, Catholic, and evangelical services; minors in philosophy, East Asian studies, and anthropology while working toward a graduate degree in creative writing (poetry) later in life; a life-time of observing and considering the people around me... That is one possibility. The Buddha largely refused to address the question of an after-life, preferring to address questions of right-living. Dissolution of the self is union with the ground of Being. Frankly, that sounds like a cop-out in the face of a difficult question. Will you be the Faith of 33 Orchard St. in Heaven? Will you miss your cat? Your earlier reply sounded as though the experience of Heaven would be like dissolving in a sea of love where such identity is largely irrelevant.I am attempting to learn how to converse with you, Faith: some of your posts have sparked a level of anger that I have not felt since under hostile fire more than 30 years ago. It is hard, and I am attempting not to turn away from the difficult.Your beliefs are anathema to me, and I am swimming against the tide of my own inclinations in order to increase my understanding. Perhaps you are doing the same.But perhaps not: if you prefer not to interact with me on this forum, I will respect your wishes.This message has been edited by Omnivorous, 09-30-2005 04:16 PM