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Author Topic:   My problem with evolution
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 106 of 120 (24275)
11-25-2002 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Quetzal
11-25-2002 3:11 AM


I keep coming back to the idea that, as you explained, we have an unified image in an electrical but not in a pictorial sense. So it looks to me like a leap from the electrical to the pictorial. That leap we call the "mental."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Quetzal, posted 11-25-2002 3:11 AM Quetzal has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by John, posted 11-25-2002 4:45 PM robinrohan has responded

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 107 of 120 (24276)
11-25-2002 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by robinrohan
11-25-2002 4:42 PM


quote:
Originally posted by robinrohan:
I keep coming back to the idea that, as you explained, we have an unified image in an electrical but not in a pictorial sense. So it looks to me like a leap from the electrical to the pictorial. That leap we call the "mental."

Do computers also have a mental leap when an image goes from a binary file on your hard drive to a picture on your screen?

------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com


This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by robinrohan, posted 11-25-2002 4:42 PM robinrohan has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by robinrohan, posted 11-25-2002 5:27 PM John has responded

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 108 of 120 (24282)
11-25-2002 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by John
11-24-2002 11:29 PM


John, I'm tired of your insults.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by John, posted 11-24-2002 11:29 PM John has not yet responded

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 109 of 120 (24285)
11-25-2002 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by John
11-25-2002 4:45 PM


No, computers don't. They produce a pictorial image. Are you suggesting that the brain produces a physical pictorial image?

I've already talked about this with Obsidian and Quetval and they agreed that the brain does not produce a pictorial image, only an electrical image. What that means is the comparison with computers does not hold.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by John, posted 11-25-2002 4:45 PM John has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by John, posted 11-25-2002 11:46 PM robinrohan has responded
 Message 111 by Zhimbo, posted 11-26-2002 2:54 AM robinrohan has responded
 Message 112 by Zhimbo, posted 11-26-2002 2:55 AM robinrohan has not yet responded

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 110 of 120 (24340)
11-25-2002 11:46 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by robinrohan
11-25-2002 5:27 PM


quote:
Originally posted by robinrohan:
No, computers don't. They produce a pictorial image. Are you suggesting that the brain produces a physical pictorial image?

I was responding to this:

quote:

I keep coming back to the idea that, as you explained, we have an unified image in an electrical but not in a pictorial sense. So it looks to me like a leap from the electrical to the pictorial. That leap we call the "mental."

It very much implies the production of a pictorial image. It is not I suggesting the brain produce a pictorial image. It looks to me like what you are saying is that we have electrical patterns in our brain that represent images. When we remember these images the mind, not the brain, sees these patterns as pictures-- translates these patterns to pictorial images. What is this mental leap?

quote:
I've already talked about this with Obsidian and Quetval and they agreed that the brain does not produce a pictorial image, only an electrical image.

Kind-of obvious really....

quote:
What that means is the comparison with computers does not hold.

There are lots of reasons a brain is not like a computer. But you claimed to have found 'mental' in the jump between electronic patterns and pictorial images. Computers make that jump all the time.

Just trying to find out what you are talking about.

------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com


This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by robinrohan, posted 11-25-2002 5:27 PM robinrohan has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by robinrohan, posted 11-26-2002 8:27 AM John has responded

  
Zhimbo
Member (Idle past 4118 days)
Posts: 571
From: New Hampshire, USA
Joined: 07-28-2001


Message 111 of 120 (24358)
11-26-2002 2:54 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by robinrohan
11-25-2002 5:27 PM


The pictorial image of a computer is purely epiphenomenal from the computers "point of view". Turn the monitor off. The computer cares not a whit.

I suspect it is, in principle, possible to make a monitor image of a human mental image. Not possible in reality in the forseeable future, but that's not the point.

If that is true, is there any real difference between computers "images" and mental images? If that isn't true, why isn't it true?

Previous message:

quote:

No, computers don't. They produce a pictorial image. Are you suggesting that the brain produces a physical pictorial image?

I've already talked about this with Obsidian and Quetval and they agreed that the brain does not produce a pictorial image, only an electrical image. What that means is the comparison with computers does not hold.



This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by robinrohan, posted 11-25-2002 5:27 PM robinrohan has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by robinrohan, posted 11-26-2002 8:34 AM Zhimbo has not yet responded

  
Zhimbo
Member (Idle past 4118 days)
Posts: 571
From: New Hampshire, USA
Joined: 07-28-2001


Message 112 of 120 (24359)
11-26-2002 2:55 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by robinrohan
11-25-2002 5:27 PM


The pictorial image of a computer is purely epiphenomenal from the computers "point of view". Turn the monitor off. The computer cares not a whit.

I suspect it is, in principle, possible to make a monitor image of a human mental image. Not possible in reality in the forseeable future, but that's not the point.

If that is true, is there any real difference between computers "images" and mental images? If that isn't true, why isn't it true?

Previous message:

quote:

No, computers don't. They produce a pictorial image. Are you suggesting that the brain produces a physical pictorial image?

I've already talked about this with Obsidian and Quetval and they agreed that the brain does not produce a pictorial image, only an electrical image. What that means is the comparison with computers does not hold.



This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by robinrohan, posted 11-25-2002 5:27 PM robinrohan has not yet responded

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 113 of 120 (24386)
11-26-2002 8:27 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by John
11-25-2002 11:46 PM


John:

computer electrical info.=brain's electrical info.

monitor for a computer---produces pictorial image

brain--does not produce pictorial image.

Nonetheless we have imaginary pictorial images--the "monitor" is the mind.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by John, posted 11-25-2002 11:46 PM John has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by John, posted 11-26-2002 9:45 AM robinrohan has responded

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 114 of 120 (24387)
11-26-2002 8:34 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by Zhimbo
11-26-2002 2:54 AM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Zhimbo:
[B] suspect it is, in principle, possible to make a monitor image of a human mental image. Not possible in reality in the forseeable future, but that's not the point.

If that is true, is there any real difference between computers "images" and mental images? If that isn't true, why isn't it true?

If we could do this it still doesn't solve the problem. Something in the brain allows us to vilsualize imaginary images. Maybe you could do it artificially but now it is being done naturally. How? The mental leap. The brain produces no images, only info. Nonetheless we are able to visualize images.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Zhimbo, posted 11-26-2002 2:54 AM Zhimbo has not yet responded

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 115 of 120 (24399)
11-26-2002 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by robinrohan
11-26-2002 8:27 AM


quote:
Originally posted by robinrohan:
John:

computer electrical info.=brain's electrical info.

monitor for a computer---produces pictorial image

brain--does not produce pictorial image.

Nonetheless we have imaginary pictorial images--the "monitor" is the mind.


As Zhimbo has pointed out, from the computer's point of view-- this is the view we have to take for the sake of the analogy-- what the monitor displays to the outside is not relevant. For the computer it is still just electrons. ( The monitor's display would be, say, our facial expressions. ) As you trace those signals back from the screen through the wires and circuits, there is no 'jump' of mentality. Yet, the electronic patterns are meaningful to the machine-- meaning, it can manipulate them to provide the external display.

Of course, computers lack self-reflection -- as is painfully obvious if you've ever tried to force a program to not only generate a variable's values on the fly but to generate the variables as well.

------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com


This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by robinrohan, posted 11-26-2002 8:27 AM robinrohan has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by robinrohan, posted 11-26-2002 4:20 PM John has responded

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 116 of 120 (24458)
11-26-2002 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by John
11-26-2002 9:45 AM


There is no jump to mentality in the computer becuase the pictorial image produced on tne monitor, if it is produced, is physical. We can measure the size of it if we want to. There is no pictorial image inside the computer--just info. There is also no pictorial image inside the brain--just info. Nonetheless we can visualize pictorially. When we imagine we don't in our imagination "see" a network of neurons. We see a picture. A network of neurons is not identical to a picture, even though the info. of the different parts of the picture is contained in that network and is produced by that network. The picture is a different form of the same information, but the fact that it is a different form makes it different.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by John, posted 11-26-2002 9:45 AM John has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by John, posted 11-27-2002 12:26 PM robinrohan has responded

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 117 of 120 (24617)
11-27-2002 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by robinrohan
11-26-2002 4:20 PM


quote:
Originally posted by robinrohan:
Nonetheless we can visualize pictorially. When we imagine we don't in our imagination "see" a network of neurons. We see a picture.

When you see a painting on the wall, you don't, if we are to believe the rumors, see the painting. Light hits your retinas and is converted into electronic signals which travel to your brain and are interpretted by the brain into the image we think is external to us.

Imagining is the same process minus the retinas. Is all vision a jump of mentality?

------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com


This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by robinrohan, posted 11-26-2002 4:20 PM robinrohan has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by robinrohan, posted 11-27-2002 5:44 PM John has responded

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 118 of 120 (24657)
11-27-2002 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by John
11-27-2002 12:26 PM


John, what do you mean we don't "see the painting"? Are you suggesting that what I see is an illusion? If so, that illusion is the leap of mentality.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by John, posted 11-27-2002 12:26 PM John has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by John, posted 11-27-2002 7:42 PM robinrohan has responded

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 119 of 120 (24685)
11-27-2002 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by robinrohan
11-27-2002 5:44 PM


quote:
Originally posted by robinrohan:
John, what do you mean we don't "see the painting"? Are you suggesting that what I see is an illusion? If so, that illusion is the leap of mentality.


You don't 'see' the picture. Think about the sequnce of events.

You got the thing-in-itself-- the picture.

1) Light hits the picture. Some of the light is absorbed, some is reflected. So we are at the 'reflected light' stage, one step removed from the picture.

2) The reflected light hits the eye and travels to the retina. As it passes through the eye it is distorted. This distortion we call 'focusing' We are now at the 'focused-reflected light stage' and are two steps removed from the picture.

3) The light is converted to electronic signals by cells in the retina. We are now three steps removed.

4) The electronic signals travel through the optic nerves to the appropriate part(s) of the brain where it is converted into the images we see. Four steps removed, and all, so far physical processes.

If I read you right, you are saying that what reads these interpretations is 'Mind'?

------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com


This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by robinrohan, posted 11-27-2002 5:44 PM robinrohan has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by robinrohan, posted 11-28-2002 8:13 AM John has not yet responded

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 120 of 120 (24772)
11-28-2002 8:13 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by John
11-27-2002 7:42 PM


Well, John, the imaginary image has to be somewhere. It's not in the brain. You can search all over the brain and never find it--not the pictorial image, that is. What you find is electically coded info.

So where is the image? Well, it's not in space at all. It's purely mental. Now to say it "exists" is problematical since it's imaginary, but you can't call it nothing either. So I guess it exists (in the mind).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by John, posted 11-27-2002 7:42 PM John has not yet responded

  
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