What to believe, crisis of faith

Don't you mean "be sure you stock up on the God-stuff to fill any holes"?

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We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. - Richard Dawkins

A minority do, yes. Even they certainly don't consider them seperate mechanisms, or recognize any inherent barrier that prevents successive microevolutionary change from resulting in macroevolutionary change. I don't see how one follows from the other.

Well, of course. If we knew everything there was to know about evolution, what would biologists have left to study? You can call them "leaks", I guess, with your anti-science worldview - the proper term is "the unknown", and the proper response to the unknown is not to abandon inquiry but to advance it.We don't know everything about cancer, either, but the proper response to that is not to tear down all the hospitals, it's to build more schools.

So tell us, how does his advice get into your brain? Do you just "know" what he wants? Does he beam it down into your brain? Where do you find his guiding message? Can you quote him? And again, I mean recent and directed to you, not in any literature or stories you may have read or heard.And since you mention it (I did not), I have stopped capitalizing references to him. All the current events show that he is the meanest nastiest S.O.B that ever was or ever could be. Just look at the suffering he gives us and compare that to the happiness.That is not free will! When you treat you children that way, then you might have the beginings of an argument.

No. The ToE was developed to explain observed phenomena. As we learned about DNA and how characteristics were inherited, we discovered that the changes were implemented in alleles. The implementation fit the theory that was developed years earlier.Editing post to include another comment. It can be, but that does not make it true.
A belief is something that you hold to be true, but it is not necessarily true. There are many incorrect beliefs.
You do not "know" something is true until you can verify it. To believe it does not verify it.You have no valid evidence that god exists.This message has been edited by bkelly, 09-30-2005 07:38 PM

I'd have to disagree with this statement for these reasons:Biolgists recognize that speciation is separate problem from general changes in alleles within a population. That is where, I think, the "macro" word came from dividing events which remain below the species line from others.There do need to be some extra mechanisms to allow speciation to occur and allow an overall increase in the number of species. That is if one population remains a "species" and is allowed to continue to freely interbred then it may become over time a new species in that it would not be able to breed with their great-great-.....great grandparents but only one new species not more than one.The need for additional mechanisms (geographic separation for example) does produce some kind of demarcation between macro and micro evolution. The changes are the same for the organisms but when additional mechanisms are added the changes produce a different sort of outcome in populations.

And doesn`t the 'diversity' of bilge pumps sorta prove evolution?

Fine, I used to work in fast food, I was a manager of Taco Bell in Indianapolis, I ate well during that time and made decent money, but I couln't sleep at night unless I had a drink to relax me. I started getting ulcers. My body knew that wasn't the job for me, so Who told it?!? sure wasn't my brain, I liked that job, but it wasn't what was meant for me. I was at that job for 2 months so at least i can say I did stick with it and honestly try. You're opinion, your entitled to it. I do not agree with you, especially most of our pain and suffering is self inflicted. And i know, "What about all the natural disasters?" And you know what, that's something people have to live with, God didn't make them live, below sea level, or by a coast line, or near a fault line, WE make those choices, not HIM!My brother lives near within 100 miles of the San Andreas Fault, I love him and don't want to loose him in an earthquake, but he understands that's the risk of the area.And what about all the destruction man inflicts on his fellow man, that's not God's fault, even the crusades, That was man perverting the Bible and belief system to justify a land grab, not God's fault, I'd imagine those that do that sort of thing get their own punishments for those kind of choices.

I don't know if anybody has addressed this portion of your post with you yet, so pardon me if they have.You say that it wasn't until college that you started learning things about mainstream Christianity. What things? From whom did you learn them? What kind of college did you attend (secular or christian)? Was there a specific classroom or professor that challenged you to rethink your belief system?I ask because I have found that many people in college (myself included) have questioned their belief system. Perhaps your faith was based on a weak standing with God, in that you depended upon your parents for a spiritual upbringing and instruction. Then when you found yourself out from under their thumb, you began to question what you truly believed. This is not uncommon, but I would encourage you not to make any rash decisions. Abandoning what you have believed in is a huge step, and often one that causes tremendous upheaval in one's life as time goes on. In college, we find ourselves surrounded by the secular world in a way that we never were before. While living at home, and being a minor, we were under our parents protection to a great extent, and this caused us not to venture too far from their beliefs. Christianity is about developing a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, and not about being brought up to be a Christian or attending a specific church. So it is my recommendation that you seek out a relationship with God, in a deeply personal way. How might you attempt this?*Spend time in meditation of God's word and prayer (even 5 minutes a day, at the same time every day, really helps to focus)*Look for a college group at your church, or a church that is close to where you attend college.*Join a bible study on campus. Almost every campus, whether secular or christian, has groups of people who gather for bible studies once a week. You can usually find flyers, or notices, pinned up on bulletin boards, or you'll hear about it by word of mouth. Many of them are experiencing what you're experiencing. It's good to have friends who understand.The message here, is to remember that many college professors are teaching from a secular point of view, and so yes they will encourage one to explore other options, other belief systems, and maybe even give up on being "dependent" on a belief system. What we must remember is that their rules do not have to be our rules. What they believe, does not have to be what we believe. Further more, what they believe isn't necessarily true, just because they are in a position of authority. It's the same with peers. College is a fun and wonderful experience. Sometimes it's easy to get caught up in the partying, dating, and relationship experiences. Along with some of these experiences guilt may become a part of our daily living, and rather than admit that we might be doing something that goes against what we believe in, it becomes easier to put what we believe in, on a side burner. We figure that we're due some fun after living in an environment where we were not really allowed to make our own rules. Sound familiar? Trust me, we've all been there. Life is fun. College is great. Being an adult is fantastic. But you don't have to let go of who you are, and conform to worldly ideologies, in order to experience all of that. We all make mistakes in life, and sometimes it's really hard to let them go. Let's face it... sex is a huge part of college life, for most students. Sex is also a beautiful and wonderful experience, but we both know that God intended it to be experience inside a message.My purpose is not to guilt you, shame you, or cause you to feel unworthy of God's love. Instead, I want to challenge you to be the adult you desire to be, and own up to your feelings. Own up to responsibility. Grasp life and love every moment of it. But..... (important but) don't lose yourself in your explorations. If you want to have a seriously, fantastic experience in life, then go find God. He hasn't abandoned you, and you don't have shame yourself into an existence apart from him.Consider this "friendly" post from one who has been where you are. God bless.This message has been edited by Damaris, Fri, 09-30-2005 11:36 PM

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Who you think I am is not nearly as important as who I think I am.
Who I think I am is not nearly as important as who God can see inside of me.

Well, I attended Fort Wayne Bible college(now Taylor University Fort Wayne Branch) in 87-88 to study Music education. Didn't do to well so I attended Oakland city College in southern Indiana (a general baptist based college) from 88-90 and recieved a AAS degree, majoring in HVAC/R. And it was studying the history of the bible, not the history IN the bible, that made me question things. Looking at all the diversity of churches today, a lot saying that THEY are to only ones getting to Heaven(and I HAVE heard many churches say JUST that), it reminds me of what the sadusese(sp) and farases(sp) did to the 10 comandments, personal interpretation of them led to over 100 rules about what and how the jews of Jesus' time could do. All as a result of their OWN interpretation.Now of course what makes me so special in my interpretations? Nothing. I just choose not to believe the bible is the Word of God, which was translated by mankind for it's own purposes.As for the rest of your post, I hope it's clear that I do still believe in God, but it's my faith in MAN that has suffered when it comes to both science and religion. Check out some of my other posts and you might get a clearer picture of where i stand.

but I'd like to point you towards one possible source to explore.Literal interpretation of the Bible as Fact is a fairly recent phenomenon. Throughout most of history, Scripture has been understood to be about teaching folk how to live with each other and how to interpret the world around us within the knowledge and understanding of the era and culture. That's why the two different accounts of the Creation were included in Genesis.If you have time, do some reading of the Talmud, or stop by a local synagogue and talk to a Rabbi. Look at the history of interpretation going back to the very earliest days. You'll find that not only were subjects open to interpretation, but that diversity of opinion was the norm, not the exception.Enjoy your journey. You've embarked on a wondrous, exciting and productive voyage.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Aw gee, you told us a bit of your life story, which is nice. However, you completely avoided the question.Why do you believe that god gives you guidance? How does he give it? The questions are simple. If you cannot develop a simple answer, then you should be suspicious of your answers. You can be certain that I and others are.Please note that you cannot answer the question. Then think about the case that you cannot answer the question. There is information in your inability to answer the question. Do you have an open mind? Consider the possibility that the reason that you cannot say how god guides you is, he doesn't. There is a lot more than opinion here. That we are cruel to each other is indisputable. Starting with the assumption that god is all knowning and omnipotent, he created us such that we would treat each other this way. And even if he did not, he stands by and does nothing. Why?Now if we throw in the assumption that god is loving and benevolent then we have some insurmountable contradictions.The time has passed for you to put some limits on your blind faith and start looking at some of the facts of this world.You started this thread with this first line: The implicit message in that line and in the remainder of your post is that you have some questions and would like some answers. The implicit message also claims that you have an open mind. I no longer think that is the case.You have been given many answers that you ignore. You have been asked questions that will lead to answers, and you ignore or dodge them. So what is your goal here?

I'm not so sure that Aztraph has been ignoring or dodging what others have posted. Why should he have faith in what you or I say? He has to work through this himself and, as far as I can tell, he has been doing that. I don't expect him to settle all questions overnight. It will take him some time, maybe years.

I hold that he has been dodging questions. If he would say something like "I cannot refute the statement or answer the question and will have to think on this" then he would not be dodging.I don't expect him to have faith in what I say, or to believe anything I say. I do ask him to subject his beliefs to valid questions. Let the words stand for themselves and their meanings, not for me personally. (Not entirely possible, but the meaning is clear)But I sense a more significant position in your post. Yes, I have probably been unduly harsh and demanding in my questions. That is something I need to work on.Aztraph, I do not mean to be harsh and demanding on you. I have been and I appologize for that. However, I do intend to be that on your position.To separate the position and the person is difficult at best, and maybe impossible.In the mean time, please take a look at Sam Harris's book, "The End of Faith" Maybe even just cruise the first chapter in the book store. I would really like to hear some other peoples' position on Mr. Harris.

I thank those of you that have encouraged me, and I am Truely grateful for those whose "debating" talents have forced me to think more about the world around me, I might be holding on a view that I grew up with, such views are hard to change I admit, but I believe there is a God. What form that God takes may be as simple as Love, may be more complex than the universe appears to be. I just have a hard time accepting that it all happened 'by accident.'I regret that i haven't been as attentive as i'd like to have been, but I am the only service tech in the company i work for/run, and I have very little time to give consideration to all the alternate views that it has been my pleasure to encounter, and i do plan on copying all the posts in this debate for future reference and contemplation, When/if I have the time.I am sorry if I have offended anyone out there by not responding to a post, it's not my intention to ignore, I honestly didn't think there would be SO MANY POSTS! I went from a junior member to a member with one topic, Is that normall?Anyway, thankyou all for your contributions to my question, i guess i had an answer of sorts all along, i just need to keep asking the right questions.I have to go for a few days so i won't be able to respond till tuesday.