Did Adam and eve really have a choice?

quote:

---

Yes, He did choose this reality, but are you complaining about it really? People who don't like it have the option of being saved from it.

---

If you are talking about accepting Christ, then please explain how that saves one from our current reality? Accepting Christ doesn't take away the struggles of life, nor does it make one as innocent as Adam and Eve.There really is no option.

---

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

Not sure what world you live in faith, or what you consider to be 'most people'. You come across as being very naive.I'm not sure if you're aware but there is a hell of a lot of suffering and cruelty in this world right now. the majority of the worlds population live in 'developing' countries, or to give it it's more PC term 'The Majority World' where hunger and poverty is rife. people fight tooth and nail just to survive.If genesis is to be believed God is punishing these people for what Adam and Eve Chose. poverty, disease, war, prejudice, torture, murder, rape, abuse...the list goes on, all this as a result of eve eating an apple?
what kind of god is this? I'll choose innocence anyday.(But of course, it has all been written, or foreseen, there only one outcome, this outcome. so there is no real choice)iano: re your drunk driving analogy... very poor... expected more. You getting desperate?

All I meant about people preferring things as they are is that they are arguing with an abstract theological notion about God, having no idea really what they are talking about, and it is these abstractions that make them bitter about the painful realities of life. Otherwise they wouldn't be complaining as they do.This is probably the hazard of talking theology at this level. A Christian starts out trying to show the human need for a Savior and soon encounters all these objections to God's allowing sin at all instead of gratitude that a way out is offered. It's a strange conversation. I think I will try to avoid it in future.This message has been edited by Faith, 09-30-2005 03:01 PM

I have to admit to being confused by your participation in a 'Debate and Discussion' forum if you seek to avoid topics which challenge your view.

Iano builds a playpen for his infant children, but leaves a powerful circular saw in the middle, plugged in:"Don't touch the saw!" Iano sternly warns his infants, who are barely old enough to talk. "The consequences will be dire in the extreme, I assure you!" He then leaves.Later, when one of his kids is being sent to the hospital, or the morgue, with a few of his limbs cut off, who should we blame then? The "choice" of his infant to play with the saw?That's not going to fly with the court that, later, is going to convict Iano of child endangerment.

Good post, Crashfrog. Has the jury reached a verdict on God yet? If we find Him guilty, do we banish Him from our collective imaginations?

I don't think that God necessarily has a problem if we accept one or more of the following to be true:

• God didn't create the Universe
• God isn't benevolent
• God isn't omnipotent
• God isn't omniscient
• Humans don't have free will

I should think that not many are readily able to accept the possibility that God isn't benevolent or that humans don't have free will. But if, for example, we reject the notion that God is omniscient and knew the future as he created the Universe, then perhaps we can blame ourselves (or Adam and Eve) for our suffering....But, yes, preferably we should banish him from our collective imaginations.

Sure, why not? What's he gonna do about it? I notice that Marduk and Thor went quietly into that good night; I doubt Yehova or Yaweh or whatever you want to call him is going to give us much trouble.

Works for me!

In defense of the question as to whether Adam and Eve had a choice, the jury has heard the arguments. In essence, some of us are saying that God is,(one choice) and that we are freewilled. The opposition is saying that if God is, there is no choice of free will.Some of us argue that the facts support God, yet there is still choice.The majority of this jury, however, is pushing for God as an outdated concept of human imagination.So far.Any other jurors wish to comment? (and remember, they don't allow the Bible in the juror quarters. Facts are weighed strictly by the evidence seen.) Now what are we gonna do, Iano?JURY SO FAR: Crashfrog, Purple Youko,Phatboy,Funkaloyd. 8 jurors are missing.This message has been edited by Phatboy, 10-01-2005 11:50 AM

Not sure that's what this thread was driving at, I assumed (for sake of argument) that God exists, and genesis was truth, and questioned whether Adam and Eve had Choice i.e. who was responsble for the Fall, Man or God. I would say the jury so far (within the premise set above) would Say God.I don't think God should be banished from our imaginations, rather It should be understood to exist solely within our imaginations.even saying that I'm not sure howmuch I agree with it... the Notion of God (real or imaginary) means a lot to a great many people and provides strength (even if it is through a placebo effect).

.This message has been edited by Brian, 10-13-2005 03:01 AM

Hi iano,Just saw Brian's reply which led me to your post. I was kind of surprised: Whaaaaat?Isn't this the whole "original sin" thing? Aren't those who don't know damned anyway because of original sin? It ALWAYS is our fault... we all have original sin. Even some sheep herder up the side of a mountain in Tibet. That person's a descendant of Adam, just like the rest of us. That person's in that situation because of The Fall. So if we follow our conscience, it will lead us to God?Don't you think the conscience of a goat herder in Tibet is a bit different than yours or mine?I don't get it at all. This really confused me about where to look for faith. My conscience? My girlfriend's conscience follows a wholly different path than mine. If she listens to hers she'll never find God.Can you help me understand?

The title of the thread is Choice/No Choice. Your presuming none was possible without making a case for it. You say "infants". Adam and Eve weren't infants. You say "he then leaves" but this is not suggested. All have conscience. Eve put up resistance to satans temptation. Where did this resistance come from? We do not know what she understood by his warning but it was sufficient to require lies and deceit on the part of satan in order to overcome it.1)Adam and Eve would have known they were not God. That they were 'lesser' beings than God
2)Adam and Eve were told by God they would die3)Adam and Eve were told they could be like God - this was desirable - thus backing up sentence 1)
4)Adam and Eve were told they wouldn't dieWhat God told them was countered by Satan. Leaving a perfectly balanced choice up to them - and them alone. God cannot be blamed for their choice, neither can satan

---

"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

Of course the Satan character can't be blamed, he isn't even part of the story.