Why must we believe *before* we die?

For many, religion is a mere hobby.

The correct terminology is not 'good' but 'righteous'. A believer is declared righteous by God. Its a legal description that is applied to the Christians spirit. The Christian may do very 'bad' things - much worse than a non-Christian - but in the Gospel sense this sin resides in his mortal flesh (body, mind, emotions etc). The spirit is the relevant piece though. It is 'clothed' or covered with Christs righteousness and as such is consdered perfect - not good in a relative way.In heaven, the believers spirit gets a new body. Referred to as a glorifed body: one that cannot decay, sin, die etc.The process:God's effectual call drawing the person to the point of decisionAcceptance by the person of God - in whatever form that takes: but incorperating (whether the person sees it as such) heart assent as to his soverignty, the persons need and the persons invitation for God to take his rightful, prime place in the persons life.Some events then take place:Justification (by this act of faith by the person) A person is declared righteous. Their sins are forgiven because of Jesus' sacrificial act, the slate is wiped completely clean. 'Just-as-if-I'd' never sinned.Indwelling of the holy spirit. Whereas a persons spirit was "dead in their transgressions and sin" Gods spirit now takes up residence inside them and brings them to life. It is the moving in of the Spirit that a person notices. They feel alive for the first time. Born again in other words. Gods spirit never moves outAfter that a process pf sanctification takes place. Sin dwells in a persons 'flesh' (physical, mental body) not in their spirit. But now there begins warfare. The spirit which has come to life as well as Gods spirit within conflicts with sin within. The battle will rage and it can be vicous. Sanctification is the process whereby sin is pushed out of residence in the flesh and a persons spirit is (as I picture it) trained for life heaven. The person will never be perfect in the flesh. Sin will always be there waiting to pounce. But the process of sanctification does change the person. Aside from the pleasure and joy and peace it gives the person themselves it tends to becomes outwardly visible to others that something attractive is happening. This can be used by God to help speak to others on whom he is working at drawing to him.And no...I'm not very far along that path

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

Every world religion except Christianity, is about one thing. Law. Do this, that and the other thing and you will get to heaven, nirivana or whatever. Do this to get right with 'god' be it going to church, meditating, praying x times per day, doing good, repeating mantras etc, etcChristianity is the only 'religion' where you postition or future depends NOT upon what you do but on what God has done for you.And there is nothing wrong with hobbies. So long as you are saved.

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

More nonsense. Christianity has as many rules and regulations as any other religion. Your bias is obvious.

what, you mean like 'Dungeons and Dragons' or something ?

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

... what ?! what bible are you reading ?So we can ignore Jesus's rhetoric that it's what you do that saves you? (we can also ignore all of James)So you're saying that if you ignore the commandments, rape, steal and pillage it has no impact to your future according to Christianity, right? what are you on about?! that's *exactly* what Christianity is saying:- repent, accept Jesus and you'll get to heaven (Paul's version)
- do good, love God and your neighbour and you'll get to heaven (Jesus's version)where do you see the difference?

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

Paul????John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.1John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.This message has been edited by Faith, 10-02-2005 04:04 PM

Never met anyone who believed in hell who thought they were going to go there, it must be comforting to see your enemies suffer.

When he rose from the death did it cancel your salvation?

No Faith, I think you'll be joining me and Crashfrog as we plot the revolution. We'll be on the first beer fountain.

So we only find god when we can't cut it, sorry been there got no answer.

Parasomnium wrote,"Why does God want us to reach belief in him in the very short period of our existence when it is hardest for us to do so? I mean, our life on earth is infinitely short compared to the eternal afterlife. Why can't God accept people who only come to believe after they have died and then see that everything they've been told in church is true after all? ... I'd like to see some religious opinions."I really like your question. Here's my view.On the one hand, belief should not always require seeing for ourselves. Jurors believe the testimony of witnesses, and most of us believe what newspapers say (sometimes). We believe things people tell us all the time - at least we believe them enough to act as if the people are not mistaken. At times, our belief will prove to be falsely placed, but the alternative of assuming everyone cannot be trusted would be paranoid. We have to trust people some time, and we can take a hard look at people to decide when our trust is justified.On the other hand, belief should not be placed without due justification (at least according to Judaism and Christianity). Otherwise, we would believe in all the gods. So belief has to at least satisfy the requirement of coherency. This leaves us with two questions: Is there a God? and How do I know what God is truly like? (so that my beliefs are not without justification).I will assume for this reply (without justification) that the character of this world (including the genuine value of our own lives) is best explained by a Creator who is a person. This idea at least seemed to many ancient people a better explanation of the world than polytheism, and it does not depend on whether macro-evolution occurs or not.If there was a Creator, then it's possible he would communicate to us. And for any comprehensive level of communication he would have to speak in a way we could humanly understand - something like a human language. So what is the reasonable thing to do when someone tells us that they heard an otherwise inexplicable voice identifying itself as God. I suppose we would wonder first if they were mentally ill. But if they instead had the characteristics of being sane, and if they performed acts or predictions which had no plausible natural explanation, then it might be reasonable to believe that God had chosen to speak to them -- even if God had not ever spoken personally to us in that way.A good biblical example is when Pharaoh will not believe Moses, even when plagues repeatedly happen in response to Pharaoh's refusal to obey God's message given to Moses. The point is that (from the perspective of the narrative) Pharaoh was not believing Moses for lack of evidence, but rather that he was refusing to believe (whether to maintain status, or because of greed) what was the most plausible explanation. The early Christian Gospels similarly suggested that people were not believing Jesus for reasons other than lack of evidence. There were miracles, for example, as evidence. Failure to believe is criticised only as an expression of ill will, or breaking trust. There are many passages in the Bible where doubt or uncertainty are tolerated without criticism.Of course, it is now disputed whether miracles happened, and whether we have credible representations of what Moses or Jesus said. But I am only trying to show here that this idea that people should believe without any basis is not a moral demand the Bible makes. It makes God seem rather arbitrary, just as modern discussion of divine punishment suggests that God punishes people far beyond what justice could require (e.g., beyond "eye for eye and tooth for tooth"). It's impossible to imagine that an arbitrary God would be willing to forgive us, or able to make us into better people.

Yes, John echoes Paul's theology, but it was written much later so it's still Paul's theology.

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

True, I won't be "shooting at you" anymore, Faith. If I can't be civil, I'll be silent.

It's the theology of both of them and of Jesus Christ.{Edit: And the idea that the strikingly original John "echoed" anybody is preposterous.This message has been edited by Faith, 10-02-2005 09:11 PMThis message has been edited by Faith, 10-02-2005 09:54 PM