|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
EvC Forum active members: 64 (9163 total) |
| |
ChatGPT | |
Total: 916,419 Year: 3,676/9,624 Month: 547/974 Week: 160/276 Day: 34/23 Hour: 0/1 |
Thread ▼ Details |
Member (Idle past 2514 days) Posts: 2965 From: Los Angeles, CA USA Joined: |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Thou Shalts and Thou Shalnts | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Nuggin Member (Idle past 2514 days) Posts: 2965 From: Los Angeles, CA USA Joined: |
Faith & Belief Topic, I'm sure. Don't know how much of this is "debatable" but it might make an interesting discussion.
Seems to me that the judeo/christian religion is awfully full of rules. (I'm sure lots of other religions are too, but I'm not nearly as familiar). I generally think you can break down the rules into two catagories: Thou Shall Nots -No Killing No Stealing No Worshiping Cows etc. and the Thou Shalls -Love thy neighbor Honor thy Mother and Father etc. I'm sure there are people here who are far more versed (lol pun intended) in the bible to help compile a list of sorts. My main point of conversation here is this - It seems that the Thou Shall Nots are very well defined. You definitely know if you are violating it. However, the Thou Shalls are in a big old gray area. Is this the nature of good and evil? Is this because so many of the Nots come from the Old Testament and so many of the Shalls come from the New? Is it that knowing how to do the right thing is often much harder than knowing how to do the wrong thing? Discuss.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
nwr Member Posts: 6409 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
It seems that the Thou Shall Nots are very well defined. You definitely know if you are violating it. However, the Thou Shalls are in a big old gray area.
If the "Thou Shalls" were well defined, then they would look like nagging. And nobody want's a nagging God. The "Thou Shalt Nots" are not really all that well defined either. For example, it is often stated as "Thou shalt not commit murder" rather than "Thou shalt not kill". This allows all kinds of equivocation. For example, it allows people to convince themselves that tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis being killed is not murder, but is merely an unfortunate side effect of war. Sad to say, but experience seems to show that the two primary moral principles are:
Might makes right.
You scratch my back, and I'll scratch yours.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Nuggin writes: It seems that the Thou Shall Nots are very well defined. You definitely know if you are violating it. I recently reread the book of Leviticus. It occured to me that it sounded a lot like: "Don't do A, but if B happens then you have to do C - but every second Thursday, if the sun is shining, do D - unless E or F and then only if G...." I got the distinct impression that the law was designed to be impossible to obey perfectly. Hmm... a written law with a built-in requirement for a priestly caste to interpret it. Any chance of an ulterior motive there?
However, the Thou Shalls are in a big old gray area. Professing Christians are fond of the we-are-not-under-the-law-because-Jesus-fulfilled-the-law gambit. That excuses them from dietary laws and yet allows them to discriminate against homosexuals, etc. (Jesus has done wonders for cherry-picker sales.) I would have thought that "Love thy neighbour as thyself" was a pretty straight-forward "thou shalt". Unfortunately, for many professing Christians, it does seem to be a gray area. People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
knowing how to do the right thing is often much harder than knowing how to do the wrong thing Absolutely. I think this is important to discuss because IMHO it's the key point of all of the Judaic religions as well as almost all of the different religions and moral systems out there. IMHO, 99.999% of all Christians totally misunderstand that message as laid out in the Bible. Yet it is explicit from the very beginnings right through to the end. The story in Genesis of Adam & Eve and the Garden of Eden is not one of a Fall, but of establishing the fact that there are good and bad choices and that we have a responsibility to TRY to make good choices. That's a really simple statement, GOD says "You know right from wrong!" It's then left up to the individuals to act on that knowledge. But then there are the rules, and as you say, the Bible, particularly the Old Testament, is filled with them. Society, like every bureaucracy, likes specifics over generalities any day. It was no different 3000 years ago than it is today. So they created RULES. Unfortunately, they also noticed that RULES don't have anything to do with what is RIGHT or WRONG. Right and wrong can only be determined within context. That led to discussions of what the rules really meant. What is work on the sabbath? What makes a contract valid? What is murder? Those questions are reflected in the Talmud, a body of work many, many times larger than the Bible. Even there no answer is found, there is support for almost every point of view. Enter Jesus and the NT. The NT is an attempt to move back towards the original concept. Jesus message is an enforcement of the original message. It is an attempt to reduce all the rules to their basics, "Love GOD and Love others as you Love yourself". It is an attempt to return right and wrong to individual responsibility, but with one big difference. The message of Christianity is "Just try. God knows you probably won't get it right. He doesn't really expect you to. But She does expect you to try to do what's right." Aslan is not a Tame Lion
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
riVeRraT Member (Idle past 437 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
Love God with all your heart mind and soul, and,
Love others as you love yourself. Then the Holy Spirit lets you know when you are doing wrong, you don't need a Chrsitian to tell when you are doing wrong or right. Then God will judge you when you die, and probably just the way you judged others and then some. But I believe its relative to the person, not a set of rules. I hope he judges us based on what we know. If we don't know God, then how can we love him?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
iano Member (Idle past 1962 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
Ringo writes: I got the distinct impression that the law was designed to be impossible to obey perfectly. Halleujah. He's seen the light! Well almost... it wasn't that the law was designed to be impossible for us to obey. It is that we are unable to obey it perfectly. The problem is in us...not the law. Whatever, the point being... The law is there to condemn you. It's sole purpose is to make you feel condemned. Should you ever reach that point, then the law will have done exactly what it's supposed to do. That's when things get...er....interesting This message has been edited by iano, 12-Oct-2005 10:21 AM "Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Parasomnium Member Posts: 2224 Joined: |
The Bible says (I'm paraphrasing it):
1. "Homosexuals are bad." 2. "Love thy neighbour (but not his wife)." No wonder those Bible-thumpers are confused. We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. - Richard Dawkins
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ohnhai Member (Idle past 5183 days) Posts: 649 From: Melbourne, Australia Joined: |
dang, you made my comment before I could. ( especially the bracketed comment in #2)
This message has been edited by ohnhai, 12-10-2005 09:41 PM
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
iano Member (Idle past 1962 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
parsomnium writes: The Bible says (I'm paraphrasing it): 1. "Homosexuals are bad." Thats not paraphrasing, that picking and choosing to suit your own ends. The Bible says (and I'm not paraphrasing it) 1:" All have sinned". To paraphrase: "Everyone is bad...not just homosexuals"
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
iano Member (Idle past 1962 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
parsomnium writes: 2. "Love thy neighbour (but not his wife)." Pars' Paraphrasing got it wrong here too. The Bible says love your neighbour and his wife... and everybody else. Biblical loving is not the same as adulterous 'loving'. "Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Parasomnium Member Posts: 2224 Joined: |
Ian, does the Bible have anything to say about ... humour?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
iano Member (Idle past 1962 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
Jar writes: The message of Christianity is "Just try. God knows you probably won't get it right. He doesn't really expect you to. But She does expect you to try to do what's right." As I've asked elsewhere Jar, where is this theory backed up in the Bible. I've pointed out already that the words "try" and "trying" don't appear in connection with salvation/damnation in the NT. It seems 'try' is a conclusion drawn out by your own rationality - not by the bibles rationale.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
iano Member (Idle past 1962 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
Funnily enough Parsomnium...it doesn't.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Parasomnium Member Posts: 2224 Joined: |
I guess you're right, Ian.
I just googled the string "The Bible on humor". Try it, the result is quite shocking. (Don't forget the quotes and spell 'humor' the American way.) I've also tried the British spelling ("The Bible on humour") and the result is just as telling, albeit also ironically funny if you click on the second result ("Syllabus 1120"). This message has been edited by Parasomnium, 12-Oct-2005 01:55 PM We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. - Richard Dawkins
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3478 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
Judaism does have their 613 commandments divided into 248 positive and 365 negative.
Number 7: To Love God, specifically Deut 6:5 Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength. and the Golden Rule or You shall love your neighbor as yourself. (Mark 12:31) were already a part of Jewish teachings. IMO Jesus was trying, as jar stated, to get people back to the basic purpose of the rules. "The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024