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Author Topic:   Do we have evidence against the supernatural?
Ben!
Member (Idle past 1399 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Hayward, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 1 of 106 (248178)
10-02-2005 12:10 PM


Do we have any evidence against the supernatural?
Now, I don't mean evidence against any specific claim about an event that may or may not have happened on this earth. I mean, do we have any evidence to counter the claim "there is a nonphysical afterlife." or "After death my soul will live on." ?
I don't see how it's even logically possible to provide such evidence. And just to take a pre-emptive strike against those who might want to claim parsimony or Occam's Razor... parsimony is a made-up, ad-hoc principle in creating scientific models. It itself is not a form of evidence, and it does not apply in any way to metaphysical "truth."
I would appreciate to know this, because I've seen a fair number of claims about how the supernatural is "unlikely", we have "evidence against it", or that it's just "unnecessary." (Being generous,) It's been unnecessary in creating models for describing the physical world. Certainly it's an unwarranted step to go beyond THAT and claim "truth."
I'd like to finally face this issue. If possible.
(AbE: I'd also like a place where I can ask people to go if they make these claims within another thread. Rather than pull a discussion OT, I can ask this question and ask them to respond in this thread.)
(maybe "Is It Science?")
This message has been edited by Ben, Sunday, 2005/10/02 09:13 AM

Replies to this message:
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 Message 32 by Omnivorous, posted 10-03-2005 12:34 PM Ben! has not replied
 Message 33 by Nuggin, posted 10-03-2005 1:14 PM Ben! has not replied
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AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 2 of 106 (248197)
10-02-2005 1:56 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 106 (248200)
10-02-2005 1:58 PM


Since one cannot disprove fairies, elves, or the Invisible Pink Unicorn, at what point do you accept that absence of evidence is evidence of absence?

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Ben!, posted 10-02-2005 2:03 PM Chiroptera has replied
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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 4 of 106 (248201)
10-02-2005 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Ben!
10-02-2005 12:10 PM


It is impossible to dealt with this issue unless you get a little more specific than that. If we don't get a little more specific, it is like asking, "Do we have any evidence for the natural...?" and try to answer it without mentioning something specific about the natural world.
With that said, I'm going to answer your question with a couple questions. Do we have any evidence against the immaterial/invisible pink unicorn? (No, the IPU never gets old.)
The other question is why should we believe in something that has a total lack of evidence?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Ben!, posted 10-02-2005 12:10 PM Ben! has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Ben!, posted 10-02-2005 2:07 PM coffee_addict has replied

  
Ben!
Member (Idle past 1399 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Hayward, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 5 of 106 (248202)
10-02-2005 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Chiroptera
10-02-2005 1:58 PM


The principle of parismony is a principle for the natural world. As far as anything is purported to exist in the natural world, I don't have a problem with applying the principle of parsimony.
In what way are fairies, elves, or Invisible Pink Unicorns supernatural?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Chiroptera, posted 10-02-2005 1:58 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Chiroptera, posted 10-02-2005 2:25 PM Ben! has replied

  
Ben!
Member (Idle past 1399 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Hayward, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 6 of 106 (248203)
10-02-2005 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by coffee_addict
10-02-2005 2:01 PM


It is impossible to dealt with this issue unless you get a little more specific than that. If we don't get a little more specific, it is like asking, "Do we have any evidence for the natural...?" and try to answer it without mentioning something specific about the natural world.
Actually, I think it's like asking "Do we have any evidence for ANYTHING in the natural world". When you use "ANYTHING", it means bring your OWN qualifier. Sure. We have evidence for the existence of Lam.
With that said, I'm going to answer your question with a couple questions. Do we have any evidence against the immaterial/invisible pink unicorn? (No, the IPU never gets old.)
Please see my previous response. In what way is the IPU supernatural? Invisible doesn't mean not part of the natural world. It just means it has specific properties with respect to electromagnetic radiation.
I've never heard somebody talk about an IMMATERIAL pink unicorn. What would that mean?
The other question is why should we believe in something that has a total lack of evidence?
That IS the other question. As in, a question that's not part of this thread. If there's no reason to believe in something and no reason to NOT believe in something, ... then there's no REASON involved in the decision. It's a topic for threads that build off the result of this one (if I can establish the result that I think I can).

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Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 7 of 106 (248212)
10-02-2005 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Ben!
10-02-2005 12:10 PM


If it sounds too good to be true ...
I think the evidence would be of this form:
  • The concept of an afterlife has a human origin;
  • There was no empirical evidence to support that concept;
  • It is known that scammers offer prizes that seem too good to be true.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Ben!, posted 10-02-2005 12:10 PM Ben! has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 68 by Ben!, posted 10-05-2005 12:03 PM nwr has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 106 (248213)
10-02-2005 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Ben!
10-02-2005 2:03 PM


quote:
In what way are fairies, elves, or Invisible Pink Unicorns supernatural?
Wow. The last time I saw someone dodge like that, they ended up spraining their back.
Let me throw this right back at you: in what way is the afterlife a supernatural concept?

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Ben!, posted 10-02-2005 2:03 PM Ben! has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Ben!, posted 10-02-2005 2:31 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
Ben!
Member (Idle past 1399 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Hayward, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 9 of 106 (248215)
10-02-2005 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Chiroptera
10-02-2005 2:25 PM


Wow. The last time I saw someone dodge like that, they ended up spraining their back.
Gee, and the last time I saw someone make a half-assed wrong accusation, they were told by AdminNosy to apologize. You proposed 3 creatures that are part of the natural world. Is air not part of the natural world because it's invisible? Elves are not part of the natural world because... they have pointy noses? Fairies not part of the natural world because.. they fly?
If we can supposedly interact with them physically, then ... it's part of the natural world. So... how are those things supernatural? They seem natural to me. And I'd really appreciate if you answer the question in the same way that I asked it--honestly.
Let me throw this right back at you: in what way is the afterlife a supernatural concept?
In the way that it has absolutely NO effect on any natural thing. In other words, it's not measurable in any way, at least as far as I can see. It seems really that simple--definitional. Maybe one step, a simple syllogism.
But I could be wrong. It happens much more often than I'm right, that's for sure.
Ben

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Chiroptera, posted 10-02-2005 2:25 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Chiroptera, posted 10-02-2005 2:43 PM Ben! has replied
 Message 16 by coffee_addict, posted 10-02-2005 2:49 PM Ben! has replied
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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 10 of 106 (248216)
10-02-2005 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Ben!
10-02-2005 2:07 PM


Ben writes:
Please see my previous response. In what way is the IPU supernatural? Invisible doesn't mean not part of the natural world. It just means it has specific properties with respect to electromagnetic radiation.
I've never heard somebody talk about an IMMATERIAL pink unicorn. What would that mean?
You are very close to committing the composition fallacy. Sure, some things are invisible, but that doesn't mean that an immaterial/invisible pink unicorn is natural.
Immaterial refers to objects that aren't made of matter as we know it. In other words, if you have an immaterial/invisible pink unicorn in a room, filling up the room with water won't allow you to measure the volume of the IPU. In fact, if you can think of any possible way to confirm the presence of an IPU in a room, you are smarter than all the philosophers and scientists that ever existed.
That IS the other question. As in, a question that's not part of this thread. If there's no reason to believe in something and no reason to NOT believe in something, ... then there's no REASON involved in the decision. It's a topic for threads that build off the result of this one (if I can establish the result that I think I can).
It is impossible to dealt with this issue unless you get a little more specific than that. If we don't get a little more specific, it is like asking, "Do we have any evidence for the natural...?" and try to answer it without mentioning something specific about the natural world.
Actually, I think it's like asking "Do we have any evidence for ANYTHING in the natural world". When you use "ANYTHING", it means bring your OWN qualifier. Sure. We have evidence for the existence of Lam.
With that said, I'm going to answer your question with a couple questions. Do we have any evidence against the immaterial/invisible pink unicorn? (No, the IPU never gets old.)
Please see my previous response. In what way is the IPU supernatural? Invisible doesn't mean not part of the natural world. It just means it has specific properties with respect to electromagnetic radiation.
I've never heard somebody talk about an IMMATERIAL pink unicorn. What would that mean?
The other question is why should we believe in something that has a total lack of evidence?
That IS the other question. As in, a question that's not part of this thread. If there's no reason to believe in something and no reason to NOT believe in something, ... then there's no REASON involved in the decision. It's a topic for threads that build off the result of this one (if I can establish the result that I think I can).
My mistake. Consider it withdrawn.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Ben!, posted 10-02-2005 2:07 PM Ben! has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Ben!, posted 10-02-2005 2:39 PM coffee_addict has replied

  
Ben!
Member (Idle past 1399 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Hayward, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 11 of 106 (248217)
10-02-2005 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by nwr
10-02-2005 2:21 PM


Re: If it sounds too good to be true ...
Here's some evidence FOR the supernatural:
  • The concept of no afterlife has a human origin;
  • There was no empirical evidence to support that concept;
  • It is known that scammers offer that seem too good to be true.
  • (I don't see how that last bullet point fits in at all yet...)
    Ben

This message is a reply to:
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Ben!
Member (Idle past 1399 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Hayward, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 12 of 106 (248221)
10-02-2005 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by coffee_addict
10-02-2005 2:32 PM


Lam,
I was trying to separate between two things: invisible pink unicorn(natural) and immaterial pink unicorn (something I've never heard of before).
How do you test for an invisible pink unicorn? Try and kick it.
How do you test for an immaterial pink unicorn? That's not natural, you can't test for it. It is untestable; you can't have evidence for it or against it (as far as I can tell).
...
As for the other part of your post... if that resolution wasn't satsifactory to you for now, let me know. But that's the approach I am trying to take to this--break it up into small pieces, see what can be (or cannot be) established, and then move forward off of that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by coffee_addict, posted 10-02-2005 2:32 PM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by coffee_addict, posted 10-02-2005 2:43 PM Ben! has replied
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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 13 of 106 (248223)
10-02-2005 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Ben!
10-02-2005 2:39 PM


Ben writes:
I was trying to separate between two things: invisible pink unicorn(natural)...
Something is natural when it exists. So, can I get to kick one at the local zoo?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Ben!, posted 10-02-2005 2:39 PM Ben! has replied

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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 106 (248224)
10-02-2005 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Ben!
10-02-2005 2:31 PM


quote:
Gee, and the last time I saw someone make a half-assed wrong accusation, they were told by AdminNosy to apologize.
Sorry. I didn't realize you were smiley-impaired. I'll remember that next time I'm tempted to include a joke in a response to one of your posts. Better yet, maybe it's better that I just don't respond to your posts.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Ben!, posted 10-02-2005 2:31 PM Ben! has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Ben!, posted 10-02-2005 2:52 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
Ben!
Member (Idle past 1399 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Hayward, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 15 of 106 (248227)
10-02-2005 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by coffee_addict
10-02-2005 2:43 PM


Something is natural when it exists. So, can I get to kick one at the local zoo?
That was supposed to mean it is "of the natural realm." You can test whether one actually exists in the room by trying to kick it.
By being part of the "natural realm", it's testable. Just as whether air exists or not is testable. It's just an invisible object. Devise a test and test for it.
My claim has nothing to do with things of the "natural realm", only things of the supernatural realm. Those things which are supposedly "not of this world". For example, an immaterial pink unicorn.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by coffee_addict, posted 10-02-2005 2:43 PM coffee_addict has not replied

  
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