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Author Topic:   Why must we believe *before* we die?
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 136 of 302 (248421)
10-03-2005 4:45 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by robinrohan
10-02-2005 12:49 PM


Re: Religion and destruction of self-reliance
iano writes:
Christianity is the only 'religion' where you postition or future depends NOT upon what you do but on what God has done for you.
robin writes:
More nonsense. Christianity has as many rules and regulations as any other religion. Your bias is obvious.
It should be easy then Name even one law, the carrying out of which will get you to heaven.
This message has been edited by iano, 03-Oct-2005 09:46 AM

"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by robinrohan, posted 10-02-2005 12:49 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by robinrohan, posted 10-03-2005 6:29 AM iano has replied
 Message 138 by Funkaloyd, posted 10-03-2005 6:49 AM iano has replied
 Message 143 by Legend, posted 10-03-2005 8:27 AM iano has replied
 Message 145 by jar, posted 10-03-2005 9:20 AM iano has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 137 of 302 (248433)
10-03-2005 6:29 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by iano
10-03-2005 4:45 AM


Re: Religion and destruction of self-reliance
Name even one law, the carrying out of which will get you to heaven.
Having faith.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 4:45 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 7:11 AM robinrohan has replied

Funkaloyd
Inactive Member


Message 138 of 302 (248434)
10-03-2005 6:49 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by iano
10-03-2005 4:45 AM


Re: Religion and destruction of self-reliance
"Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother ... Sell everything you have and give to the poor"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 4:45 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 7:32 AM Funkaloyd has replied
 Message 146 by Legend, posted 10-03-2005 9:29 AM Funkaloyd has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 139 of 302 (248435)
10-03-2005 7:03 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Parasomnium
09-16-2005 9:40 AM


Late comer
Well, I read down the first page, and it was already starting to get hysterical. Especially when you see quotes like this:
quote:
I am going to try to answer this question seriously from the standpoint of a believer (even though I'm not one).
and
quote:
God reveals himself to good people only.
That has to be the funniest thing I ever read in these forums. I guess Paul was a good guy.
quote:
Why does God want us to reach belief in him in the very short period of our existence when it is hardest for us to do so? I mean, our life on earth is infinitely short compared to the eternal afterlife. Why can't God accept people who only come to believe after they have died and then see that everything they've been told in church is true after all?
That is probably one of the most down to earth questions I ever read in these forums. I have always asked myself the same thing. I am a believer, as you know, but my faith was only made full after I had an experience with the Holy Spirit. Before that, I had choose to accept Jesus on faith, and because I thought things I was reading in the bible, were starting to make sense to me. Before that, I had no idea what was going on.
But at no point in my life, did I ever feel like I was going to hell for the way I was living, or for my beliefs. I think God's grace is endless, and his mercy too. But if we read John 3:16 it says:
John 3:16
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Just from reading that, our options are limited to 2 things, perish or have eternal life. Then Jesus also said, no one goes to father, except through me.
What does that mean exactly? When we die we go to the Pearly gates and there is Jesus with his gym shorts on, and he passes you the ball, and says, ok son, give me your best move to the hoop? If you get by me, you can get into heaven?
But I also look at the world and the way it is, and knowing what I went through in life, I never really had a fair chance at believing in God. If I would have died, then I feel it wouldn't be fair for me to go to hell. That’s my opinion only. Just look at all the religious BS, how the hell can we find God, when our Priests are molesting children, and people are trying to sell you green miracle rags on infomercials late at night. Then we have all the challenges of life we have to face, like abuse from parents, strangers, and loved ones. Trying to have relationship with persons of the opposite sex, and getting burned. Getting mugged. Starving to death, being homeless, drugs, being surrounded by non-believers who are angry at God, etc. etc. Everything we face, molds us into who we are. I mean what chance do we have? Really?
Jar thinks everyone is going to heaven. I don't know how true that is, but I think there is some truth to that statement.
But at some point in your life, someone told you there was a god, and you learned a little about it, and God put his laws on your heart and mind, the bible says so. So in your own heart, you know what is right and wrong. You look at the world around you, and based on what you know and went through, you can either say there is a God, or there isn't. If you said there is no God, I am pretty sure you still decided to live a good life, and be a good person anyway. You feel this is the right thing to do. You haven't ignored this feeling, and decided to be greedy, and get all you can get, regardless of anyone else. Or whatever. My point is, that God sees your heart, and you know your heart. I think you know in your heart already if you are getting into heaven or not.
That's just my opinion, and I do not know who is getting in or not. I can only speak for myself. Maybe I have more to learn, but I can't stand it when someone tries to tell you if your getting into heaven or not. Judge like you want to be judged, he who is without sin, can throw the first stone. Without God's grace, we ain't getting in no where. I think life is a test for us. But each one of us has to take his own test. How can someone else grade it, if they don't even know what was on your test?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Parasomnium, posted 09-16-2005 9:40 AM Parasomnium has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by nator, posted 10-03-2005 2:26 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 179 by robinrohan, posted 10-03-2005 3:36 PM riVeRraT has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 140 of 302 (248437)
10-03-2005 7:11 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by robinrohan
10-03-2005 6:29 AM


Re: Religion and destruction of self-reliance
robin writes:
Having faith.
Where is faith described as a law?

"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by robinrohan, posted 10-03-2005 6:29 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by robinrohan, posted 10-03-2005 12:42 PM iano has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 141 of 302 (248440)
10-03-2005 7:32 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by Funkaloyd
10-03-2005 6:49 AM


Re: Religion and destruction of self-reliance
funkloyd writes:
"Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother ... Sell everything you have and give to the poor"
(edit: to correct and add verse)
Romans 3:20, "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin."
Romans 8:3"For God has done what the law was powerless to do, being weakened by the sinful nature"
The law cannot save. It is not intended to save. (edit) The law has only one purpose - to show us that we cannot keep it. It is not by following the law that we are saved but by realising that we can't follow the law.
This message has been edited by iano, 03-Oct-2005 01:17 PM

"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Funkaloyd, posted 10-03-2005 6:49 AM Funkaloyd has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Funkaloyd, posted 10-03-2005 8:10 AM iano has replied

Funkaloyd
Inactive Member


Message 142 of 302 (248448)
10-03-2005 8:10 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by iano
10-03-2005 7:32 AM


Re: Religion and destruction of self-reliance
...Says Paul.
Legend made a great thread on this a while back:
http://EvC Forum: Paul of Tarsus - the first Christian? -->EvC Forum: Paul of Tarsus - the first Christian?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 7:32 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 9:14 AM Funkaloyd has not replied

Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 143 of 302 (248449)
10-03-2005 8:27 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by iano
10-03-2005 4:45 AM


Re: Religion and destruction of self-reliance
iano writes:
It should be easy then Name even one law, the carrying out of which will get you to heaven.
sure it's easy, here's not one but six :
(Mat 19:18) Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
(Mat 19:19) Honour thy father and [thy] mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Jesus said: "...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments"

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 4:45 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 9:32 AM Legend has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 144 of 302 (248454)
10-03-2005 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by Funkaloyd
10-03-2005 8:10 AM


Re: Religion and destruction of self-reliance
Where does Paul say faith is a law? Where does Jesus say salvation is by law? The law is anything but irrelevant but save it does not
Romans can be divided into 2 sections chapter 1-8:4 or thereabouts deal with the mechanics of the gospel, thereafter Paul talks of how Christians should live in the light of the fact of what has happened to them. They should live in accordance with what they are: sons of God. "God has made you a son" Paul says - "it is inconsistant to act as if you are not" He is making the point that if you have been made an ally of God it is ridiculous to act as you once were...and enemy of God.
Any talk of behaviour/law by Paul needs to be seen in relation to who he addressing. A Christian being urged to follow Gods laws is not being told this in connection with salvation - a Christian is already saved. Given that a Christian is a citizen of heaven and is being prepared for taking up residence there, it makes no sense to act like he isn't one.
Legend writes:
salvation by faith, instead of salvation by works
(Gal 2:16, Gal 3:11, Rom 3:28). In contrast Jesus taught that whoever practices the law will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.(Mat 5:17-20)
Whilst the law doesn't save, there are varying degrees of 'reward' in heaven dependant on ones attitude to the law. Legends reference in Matthew should be read. Verse 19 talks about the person who breaks the law being least in heaven and the person who upholds the law being greatest. Both are saved people however. The question is how does a law breaker and a law upholder get to heaven. It is patently not by following the law.

"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Funkaloyd, posted 10-03-2005 8:10 AM Funkaloyd has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by Legend, posted 10-03-2005 10:47 AM iano has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 145 of 302 (248455)
10-03-2005 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by iano
10-03-2005 4:45 AM


How to get to heaven
Name even one law, the carrying out of which will get you to heaven.
You don't even have to carry it out, only TRY to carry it out.
"love GOD and love your neighbor as yourself"
GOD doesn't expect you to suceed, and only asked that you try.
It really is as simple as that.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 4:45 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 9:33 AM jar has replied

Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 146 of 302 (248459)
10-03-2005 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by Funkaloyd
10-03-2005 6:49 AM


Re: Religion and destruction of self-reliance
quote:
"Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother ... Sell everything you have and give to the poor"
sorry Funkaloyd, I just realised you got there before me.

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Funkaloyd, posted 10-03-2005 6:49 AM Funkaloyd has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 147 of 302 (248460)
10-03-2005 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by Legend
10-03-2005 8:27 AM


Re: Religion and destruction of self-reliance
As with any part of the bible you have to read the verse in the context it is set in. Read the story a little bit further on. Jesus has listed a number of commandments and " The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?". Jesus said unto him "If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
Covetness.....
No one can keep all the law. Jesus just illustrates it here. Religion tells you to keep the law and you will be saved. But you cannot keep the law. You will always fail somewhere. The purpose of the law is not to save you by you keeping it. God knows you can't keep it. The law has nothing to do with your salvation...although it has everything to do with your condemnation - if it goes that way. The purpose of the law is to show you that you can't keep it. When you examine the standard of the law you will know that keeping it is impossible. It is Gods standard and all will fail. All except Jesus. He was the only one who kept all of Gods laws perfectly.
Which is why he was considered a suitable sacrifice by God. He made patent what was latent in Old Testament sacrifices: a spotless sacrifical lamb - without blemish. He never broke the law, he never sinned. Spotless.

"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Legend, posted 10-03-2005 8:27 AM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by Legend, posted 10-03-2005 11:28 AM iano has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 148 of 302 (248462)
10-03-2005 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by jar
10-03-2005 9:20 AM


Re: How to get to heaven
Jar writes:
GOD doesn't expect you to suceed, and only asked that you try. It really is as simple as that.
Where is the biblical argument (and I don't mean an isolated verse) for "salvation by trying"?

"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by jar, posted 10-03-2005 9:20 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by jar, posted 10-03-2005 9:52 AM iano has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 149 of 302 (248468)
10-03-2005 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 148 by iano
10-03-2005 9:33 AM


Re: How to get to heaven
Everywhere in the Bible. It is found from John through Paul. It's particularly obvious in Matthew.
Salvation is freely given to everyone, Christian and non-Christian alike. All that is asked to that you try to do what is right. This is the message from the beginning verses of Genesis right on through the Bible. It was the very reason for the Life and Death of jesus. It is the Gospel.
Read John 3 or Matthew 25 or Paul's writings. They all say the same thing. Salvation is given to all mankind. All that GOD asks in return is that man try to do right instead of wrong. No one is expected to succeed. Fight the Good Fight. It doesn't say win, it doesn't say fight the fight, it says Fight the Good Fight.
This is one reason that it is far more likely that an Atheist will get to heaven than a Christian. 99.999999999% of Christians simply don't get it. That's the message of Matthew 25.
It really is that simple. Your heart will be known by your actions.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 9:33 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 10:08 AM jar has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 150 of 302 (248476)
10-03-2005 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by jar
10-03-2005 9:52 AM


Re: How to get to heaven
Jar writes:
(Salvation by trying is)Everywhere in the Bible. It is found from John through Paul. It's particularly obvious in Matthew.
Like I said, some scriptural backup for the stance could be introduced. Romans chapters 1-8 is a good summation of the mechanics of the Gospel and it's not in there. But you might disagree about the purpose of Romans 1-8.
Where is this method of salvation backed up?

"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by jar, posted 10-03-2005 9:52 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by jar, posted 10-03-2005 10:15 AM iano has replied

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