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Author Topic:   Why must we believe *before* we die?
jar
Member (Idle past 413 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 151 of 302 (248479)
10-03-2005 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by iano
10-03-2005 10:08 AM


Re: How to get to heaven
So you want to play the futile game of Quote-mine?
Okay, I have some time to waste right now.
Let's start with Matthew 25:31-46
31: When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34: Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37: Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38: When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39: Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40: And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41: Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44: Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45: Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Please point out where Jesus refers to belief in the quoted scripture.
edited to change strat to start.
This message has been edited by jar, 10-03-2005 09:16 AM

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 10:08 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 10:52 AM jar has replied

Legend
Member (Idle past 5025 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 152 of 302 (248495)
10-03-2005 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by iano
10-03-2005 9:14 AM


Re: Religion and destruction of self-reliance
iano writes:
Verse 19 talks about the person who breaks the law being least in heaven and the person who upholds the law being greatest. Both are saved people however. The question is how does a law breaker and a law upholder get to heaven. It is patently not by following the law.
I don't think there's anything here to indicate that both a law breaker and a law upholder get to heaven. This verse is about how people will be regarded when the kigdom of heaven comes. Someone who annulls the law by their interpretation and teaches others to do (like the pharisees) will be regarded as the lowest (presumably not saved) while people who uphold the law will be regarded as the highest (presumably saved). Like many other Jesus verses, Mat 5:19 shows that Jesus taught that it's what you do (or try to, as Jar says) that makes the difference.

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 9:14 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 11:32 AM Legend has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1959 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 153 of 302 (248497)
10-03-2005 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by jar
10-03-2005 10:15 AM


Re: How to get to heaven
Jars Bible writes:
32: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34: Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
First God separates the righteous from the unrighteous. That much has been decided. The righteous have done certain things. This can be tackled along two lines:
a) Because they were righteous the sheep did these things. Romans 8:8 demonstrates that the unregenerate man (in Adam, unsaved) cannot please God. Such a man might do good things but these things are not pleasing to God. Only when a person is made righteous then he can please God.
b) Doing these things made them righteous. Which you would argue I imagine. It is not evident from this passage that this is the case. Neither is there any reference to doing ones best. Further, it would seem that anyone who has done any good deed could claim righteousness as you would argue it - it being a rare occasion that a person would do no good deed all the way through their lives. However the bible indicates that it will not be the majority that go to heaven. Narrow is the gate that leads to salvation - few will take it / Wide is road that leads to destruction and many will take that.
jar writes:
Please point out where Jesus refers to belief in the quoted scripture.
There is no reference to belief here because the passage doesn't deal with the mechanism of salvation - it deals with what will happen on front of Gods throne. Salvation or no has already been decided. This is about Judgment
This message has been edited by iano, 03-Oct-2005 03:54 PM

"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by jar, posted 10-03-2005 10:15 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by jar, posted 10-03-2005 10:57 AM iano has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 413 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 154 of 302 (248499)
10-03-2005 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by iano
10-03-2005 10:52 AM


Re: How to get to heaven
Sorry but that's not what it says. Please show where some righteous folk were preselected in the Matthew passage.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 10:52 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 11:37 AM jar has replied

Legend
Member (Idle past 5025 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 155 of 302 (248508)
10-03-2005 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by iano
10-03-2005 9:32 AM


Re: Religion and destruction of self-reliance
iano writes:
As with any part of the bible you have to read the verse in the context it is set in. Read the story a little bit further on. Jesus has listed a number of commandments and " The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?". Jesus said unto him "If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
Covetness.....
No one can keep all the law. Jesus just illustrates it here.
How ?? Jesus tells the young man that the commandments would be enough to save him but "if he wants to be perfect" he can give away his possessions. This shows that by keeping the commandments he's already good enough to be saved. I actually think Luke has this as another requirement, not optional like Matthew. Jesus just makes the point that it's much harder for rich people to find salvation, as he says a few verses later.
How does this show that noone can keep all the law ??
iano writes:
Religion tells you to keep the law and you will be saved.
that's what Jesus said too! (Matt 16:27, Mark 12:32-34, et al.)
iano writes:
But you cannot keep the law. You will always fail somewhere.
Jesus repeatedly and clearly points out that we'll be judged on our behaviour. He also implies that people who do good will be saved (the Good Samaritan doesn't even know Jesus, let alone believe in him). Paul tends to disagree. Whom do I believe ?

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 9:32 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 12:43 PM Legend has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1959 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 156 of 302 (248509)
10-03-2005 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by Legend
10-03-2005 10:47 AM


Re: Religion and destruction of self-reliance
legend writes:
I don't think there's anything here to indicate that both a law breaker and a law upholder get to heaven.
Read it again "shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven". IN the kingdom... You cannot be in the kingdom and be in Hell. A mans works are not irrelevant. They will be tested with fire. Some who are saved will enter the kingdom with empty bags and singed behinds (I'm pretty sure I'll be one of them) but you cannot make salvation by works out of this.
Like many other Jesus verses, Mat 5:19 shows that Jesus taught that it's what you do (or try to, as Jar says) that makes the difference.
Off the net:
We are told by Paul in his letter to the Ephesians:
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” -Ephesians 2:8,9 (all quotations will be taken from the KJV)
But we are also told by James:
“What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?” -James 2:14
Here, as with many apparent contradictions in the Bible, the difficulty disappears when we critically examine the possible meanings of the terms (words) used. Once we know the different possible meanings of those terms, we can examine their usage, in Scriptural context, to determine which of the possible definitions was originally intended."
The point is you can fling verses back and forward forever. Whats required in a deeper reading that takes in the whole tenet of scripture not just isolated verses. The above verse by James is used frequently by works-adherents. But only if taken in isolation. Compare that to Romans chapters 1-8 which show that it is not by works/religiousity. 1 verse vs. half a (very detailed) book?
Good people don't go to heaven. Righteous people do. And righteous by faith is all through the bible not righteousness by works - despite what Jar says. When a person is made righteous the works will follow. Why? because a person is transformed. They come to see Gods law as good - not a hinderence.

"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Legend, posted 10-03-2005 10:47 AM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by robinrohan, posted 10-03-2005 12:36 PM iano has replied
 Message 187 by Legend, posted 10-03-2005 7:34 PM iano has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1959 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 157 of 302 (248511)
10-03-2005 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by jar
10-03-2005 10:57 AM


Re: How to get to heaven
Jars bible writes:
36: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37: Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
The sheep (the righteous) have been separated from the goats (the unrighteous). The righteous are addressed as are the unrighteous

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by jar, posted 10-03-2005 10:57 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by jar, posted 10-03-2005 11:39 AM iano has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 413 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 158 of 302 (248516)
10-03-2005 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by iano
10-03-2005 11:37 AM


Re: How to get to heaven
and what is the criteria for the separation?
This message has been edited by jar, 10-03-2005 11:37 AM

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 11:37 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 12:52 PM jar has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 159 of 302 (248526)
10-03-2005 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by iano
10-03-2005 11:32 AM


Only good people go to heaven
Good people don't go to heaven. Righteous people do.
Same thing. "Good"="righteous."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 11:32 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 12:49 PM robinrohan has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 160 of 302 (248528)
10-03-2005 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by iano
10-03-2005 7:11 AM


Re: Religion and destruction of self-reliance
Where is faith described as a law?
The Covenant of Grace.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 7:11 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 12:46 PM robinrohan has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1959 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 161 of 302 (248529)
10-03-2005 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by Legend
10-03-2005 11:28 AM


Re: Religion and destruction of self-reliance
James 2:10 "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."
Who then would go to heaven
Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
Gifts are given freely - they are not earned.
Revelation 21:27 "And there shall in no wise enter into it (Heaven) anything that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the lambs book of life.
It doesn't say you have to be perfect to get into heaven but...
Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is a gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."
By Gods grace, as a gift, not of yourself, not by works
Titus 3:5 "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us..."
Ditto
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
Believe in him. Not works. Accept the gift
John 6:47 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on Me hath everlasting life."
Hath eternal life = has eternal life = Now - not in the future. Jesus words.
Romans 4:5 "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."
Reiterating that belief and not works is it...
John 3:18 "He that believeth on Him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
Not condemned through belief
Romans 8:1 "Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ"
No condemnation = no hell. How? Works?. Nope. "In" Christ. How does one get in Christ? God puts them there. By his grace
Romans 1:17 "But in the Gospel, a righteousness FROM GOD is revealed, which by faith from first to last."
Man doesn't make himself righteous. God does. This line was one that smacked Martin Luther across the head when he was agonising over the realisation that he couldn't get right with God by monasticism
For He (God) hath made him (Christ) to be sin for us, Who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him." (II Corinthians 5:21)
Another "righteous in Christ" statement. God makes, we don't
"And by Him (Christ) all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses." (Acts 13:39)
Adhereing to the law does not save
"But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name." (John 1:12)
Works?
"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of My hand." (John 10:28)
Once in, never out
"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may KNOW that ye have eternal life..." (I John 5:13)
Like, you don't have to stew, wondering whether you are saved or not. If your given it you'll know it.
Salvation by works?? How does this figure?

"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Legend, posted 10-03-2005 11:28 AM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by Legend, posted 10-03-2005 7:15 PM iano has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1959 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 162 of 302 (248530)
10-03-2005 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by robinrohan
10-03-2005 12:42 PM


Re: Religion and destruction of self-reliance
iano writes:
Where is faith described as a law?
robin writes:
The Covenant of Grace
Er....go on?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by robinrohan, posted 10-03-2005 12:42 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by robinrohan, posted 10-03-2005 12:56 PM iano has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1959 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 163 of 302 (248531)
10-03-2005 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by robinrohan
10-03-2005 12:36 PM


Re: Only good people go to heaven
robin writes:
Same thing. "Good"="righteous."
How do you figure this? They are patently different words.

"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by robinrohan, posted 10-03-2005 12:36 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by robinrohan, posted 10-03-2005 1:15 PM iano has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1959 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 164 of 302 (248532)
10-03-2005 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by jar
10-03-2005 11:39 AM


Re: How to get to heaven
Jar writes:
and what is the criteria for the separation?
Righteousness. "But now a righteousness FROM God has been revealed - which is by faith from first to last"
See post to Legend above with righteous statements which don't mention works

"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by jar, posted 10-03-2005 11:39 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by jar, posted 10-03-2005 1:04 PM iano has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 165 of 302 (248533)
10-03-2005 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by iano
10-03-2005 12:46 PM


the covenant of grace
According to traditional Calvinism, which thought in terms of covenants, the Covenant of Works was broken by Adam and Eve. The covenant of Grace was a new covenant. You have to believe in Christ
as your savior. If you do this, you will receive grace, which will make you a better person.
This message has been edited by robinrohan, 10-03-2005 11:57 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 12:46 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 1:29 PM robinrohan has replied

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