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Author
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Topic: Why must we believe *before* we die?
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jar
Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 166 of 302 (248537)
10-03-2005 1:04 PM
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Reply to: Message 164 by iano
10-03-2005 12:52 PM
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Re: How to get to heaven
That's not what Jesus said.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 164 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 12:52 PM | | iano has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 168 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 1:19 PM | | jar has replied |
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robinrohan
Inactive Member
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Message 167 of 302 (248540)
10-03-2005 1:15 PM
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Reply to: Message 163 by iano
10-03-2005 12:49 PM
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Re: Only good people go to heaven
Those who love God and believe in Him rather than hate Him will be saved. Those who do not refuse His call are the good people. That's what it means to be good, to heed His call and love God. If these actions were not of paramount moral importance, then there would be no reason for Him to set those conditions for salvation--unless you think that God does not value goodness.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 163 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 12:49 PM | | iano has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 174 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 1:54 PM | | robinrohan has replied |
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iano
Member (Idle past 1959 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: 07-27-2005
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Message 168 of 302 (248542)
10-03-2005 1:19 PM
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Reply to: Message 166 by jar
10-03-2005 1:04 PM
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Re: How to get to heaven
Jar writes: That's not what Jesus said. So? The Bible says it. Now if the Bible is not the inspired and inerrant word of God then all of it has to be dumped because you cannot trust any of it. It all becomes 'alleged' word of God - including Jesus' words. Paul not inspired = Gospel writers not inspired = dump the Bible as an argument for anything I would have thought anyway.
"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 166 by jar, posted 10-03-2005 1:04 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 169 by jar, posted 10-03-2005 1:21 PM | | iano has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 169 of 302 (248543)
10-03-2005 1:21 PM
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Reply to: Message 168 by iano
10-03-2005 1:19 PM
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Re: How to get to heaven
We were discussing Matthew 25. I asked what the criteria for division was as outlined in Matthew 25. Still awaiting your answer. This message has been edited by jar, 10-03-2005 12:21 PM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 168 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 1:19 PM | | iano has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 171 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 1:35 PM | | jar has replied |
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iano
Member (Idle past 1959 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: 07-27-2005
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Re: the covenant of grace
Robin writes: According to traditional Calvinism, which thought in terms of covenants, the Covenant of Works was broken by Adam and Eve. The covenant of Grace was a new covenant. You have to believe in Christ as your savior. If you do this, you will receive grace, which will make you a better person. It's what the bible says that counts. Not Calvin, Roman Catholicism, Methodistism, Nazerenism, Greek Orthdoxism. God is a covenental God for sure. Conditional convenants, unconditional convenants. Salvation by faith is not a conditional convenant. If it is pictured along these line then it could be said that God fulfills the conditions - not man. You cannot do anything to make yourself believe in what you don't believe. That would be irrational. God draws you to him. God gives you faith to believe in him not you. The only thing you can do I suppose is want him. Which is not really a law.... Robin, I don't know the Bible inside out but I know this. You won't make faith a law. Faith if it can be analogised by anything it would be a highway. A transport route between God and man down which God sends belief in him. "It is by faith you are saved" Salvation comes to you down the highway (laid by God - the master motorway engineer) of faith. You would have faith in God (in the sense that you believe/trust him) because it has been delivered to you via the highway called faith.
"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....
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iano
Member (Idle past 1959 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: 07-27-2005
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Message 171 of 302 (248548)
10-03-2005 1:35 PM
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Reply to: Message 169 by jar
10-03-2005 1:21 PM
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Re: How to get to heaven
Jar writes: We were discussing Matthew 25. I asked what the criteria for division was as outlined in Matthew 25.Still awaiting your answer I reckon I did. The answer was that you are presuming a criteria for division exists in the passage you mentioned. I cannot provide a criteria for division where none exists. God first separates. There is nothing in the passage to suggest that my point - works is a consequence of righteousness - not a source of righteousness - is incorrect.
"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 169 by jar, posted 10-03-2005 1:21 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 172 by jar, posted 10-03-2005 1:37 PM | | iano has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 172 of 302 (248550)
10-03-2005 1:37 PM
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Reply to: Message 171 by iano
10-03-2005 1:35 PM
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Re: How to get to heaven
except what Jesus says of course. LOL I repost it so you can read it again.
31: When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34: Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37: Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38: When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39: Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40: And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41: Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44: Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45: Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 171 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 1:35 PM | | iano has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 176 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 2:10 PM | | jar has replied |
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robinrohan
Inactive Member
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Message 173 of 302 (248558)
10-03-2005 1:51 PM
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Reply to: Message 170 by iano
10-03-2005 1:29 PM
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Re: the covenant of grace
it could be said that God fulfills the conditions - not man A "covenant" is an agreement between two parties. Each party fulfills their part of the covenant. Our part of the covenant is summed up in the demand for faith. That's a law if there ever was one. No faith, no salvation. This is traditional Christianity of the Calvinistic variety. But you are also supposed to have faith if you are a Catholic too--it's just that they don't de-emphasize "works." It's the essence of traditional Christianity.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 170 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 1:29 PM | | iano has not replied |
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iano
Member (Idle past 1959 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: 07-27-2005
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Re: Only good people go to heaven
robin writes: Those who love God and believe in Him rather than hate Him will be saved. Cart before the horse. The only people that can love God are people who have been saved. Love is a consequence of salvation not a condition of salvation. You don't love someone you don't know. That is totally irrational. Consequential love is the only thing that makes sense.
Those who do not refuse His call are the good people. Sorry to repeat but those who heed his call are bad people who know they are bad. They don't become good on salvation - look at their actions - often bad. They do become righteous in his sight however. Its a bit like any heir. An heir to a throne attains a position whether he is a good ruler or a bad one. Justification and Righteousness are forensic, legal declarations. Positional declarations. You are taken out of Adam and put into Christ. Mechanical, functional movements. Goodness, or being made good-er is a subsequent process to salvation called Sanctification. Look at Pauls letters to the various churchs. Some of them were doing appalling things. This doesn't mean they lose their salvation. God disciplined them but didn't remove salvation. "I am confident of this, that he (God) who has begun a good work in you, will bring it to completion until the day of Jesus Christ" Paul is demonstrating that the path to good-ness is an ongoing affair. Salvation isn't. Salvation is always spoken of as something that has occurred. You have enternal life - not will have
That's what it means to be good, to heed His call and love God. If these actions were not of paramount moral importance, then there would be no reason for Him to set those conditions for salvation There are no conditions. He fulfills all the conditions. But he won't save you unless you want it. That's not a condition - that's a choice. Your choice.
"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....
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robinrohan
Inactive Member
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Message 175 of 302 (248560)
10-03-2005 1:57 PM
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Reply to: Message 174 by iano
10-03-2005 1:54 PM
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Re: Only good people go to heaven
There are no conditions. He fulfills all the conditions. But he won't save you unless you want it. You just named a condition--"he won't save you unless you want it."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 174 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 1:54 PM | | iano has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 177 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 2:16 PM | | robinrohan has not replied |
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iano
Member (Idle past 1959 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: 07-27-2005
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Message 176 of 302 (248567)
10-03-2005 2:10 PM
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Reply to: Message 172 by jar
10-03-2005 1:37 PM
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Re: How to get to heaven
The righteous (or those in right standing before God) are those who did those things. Now, are they righteous because they did these things or did they do these things on account of, or a consequence of being righteous? A righteous person made so by God will do righteous works. Works are evidence of righteousness not a cause of righteousness. Look at it in everyday terms. Do I love a person because I do nice things for them or do I do nice things for them because I love them? The first can be falsified (young beautiful wife of ageing, ailing billionaire). The second not.
"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 172 by jar, posted 10-03-2005 1:37 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 183 by jar, posted 10-03-2005 4:20 PM | | iano has replied |
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iano
Member (Idle past 1959 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: 07-27-2005
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Re: Only good people go to heaven
robin writes: You just named a condition--"he won't save you unless you want it." You won  But on the way, you have read a lot of the Gospel - which after all "is the power of God unto salvation for all who believe" It's Gods word that does the converting Robin. Not my argument. It is my prayer for you that he uses that word to draw you towards him. God bless...
"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 175 by robinrohan, posted 10-03-2005 1:57 PM | | robinrohan has not replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2188 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 178 of 302 (248573)
10-03-2005 2:26 PM
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Reply to: Message 139 by riVeRraT
10-03-2005 7:03 AM
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Re: Late comer
quote:
I am a believer, as you know, but my faith was only made full after I had an experience with the Holy Spirit. Before that, I had choose to accept Jesus on faith, and because I thought things I was reading in the bible, were starting to make sense to me.
Are you saying that you believe based upon something other than faith? Something in addition to faith?
quote:
being surrounded by non-believers who are angry at God, etc.
1) The above is self-contradictory. You can't be angry at something you don't believe exists. 2) Where is this place where one is "surrounded" by non-believers?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 139 by riVeRraT, posted 10-03-2005 7:03 AM | | riVeRraT has replied |
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robinrohan
Inactive Member
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Message 179 of 302 (248599)
10-03-2005 3:36 PM
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Reply to: Message 139 by riVeRraT
10-03-2005 7:03 AM
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Re: Late comer
I guess Paul was a good guy. Yes, very good.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 139 by riVeRraT, posted 10-03-2005 7:03 AM | | riVeRraT has replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2188 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Re: Late comer
I guess Paul was a good guy. quote:
Yes, very good.
...except if you are a woman. Paul doesn't like women very much. ...oh, and if you are a homosexual. Paul REALLY hates homosexuals.
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