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Author Topic:   Church spreading aids
gene90
Member (Idle past 3823 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 3 of 143 (24848)
11-28-2002 7:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by metatron
11-28-2002 6:05 PM


I condemn the first post in this thread for its religious intolerance and bigotry.
As I've said, the quality of this site is going downhill. Even the moderators can't seem to control themselves sometimes.
[This message has been edited by gene90, 11-28-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by metatron, posted 11-28-2002 6:05 PM metatron has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by John, posted 11-28-2002 8:03 PM gene90 has replied

  
gene90
Member (Idle past 3823 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 6 of 143 (24855)
11-28-2002 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by John
11-28-2002 8:03 PM


[QUOTE][B]I'm not thrilled with the wording of the first post, but the point is good.[/QUOTE][/B]
I'm not thrilled with RCC's view on contraception but it seems like teaching them about promiscuity is a good call. I really don't believe that the missionaries are saying "Have all the sex you want unprotected", but more likely, "Keep your pants on!" The latter works even better than condems. Especially if the people are having lots of sexual encounters anyway . Thus the church is not spreading AIDS.
[This message has been edited by gene90, 11-28-2002]

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 Message 4 by John, posted 11-28-2002 8:03 PM John has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 11 by John, posted 11-28-2002 10:05 PM gene90 has replied

  
gene90
Member (Idle past 3823 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 7 of 143 (24856)
11-28-2002 8:23 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by funkmasterfreaky
11-28-2002 8:18 PM


Supplies don't get through Africa well becaue of political instability and lack of infrastructure. Proving them with the insanely expensive cocktails necessary to fight HIV would be impossible. And partial doses are worse than no doses, it would encourage drug resistance. Only a one-time-use vaccine will save Africa

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 Message 5 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 11-28-2002 8:18 PM funkmasterfreaky has replied

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gene90
Member (Idle past 3823 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 19 of 143 (24942)
11-29-2002 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by John
11-28-2002 10:05 PM


But it can be argued that promiscuity is the ultimate cause for the AIDS pandemic. *IF* they kept their pants on more and used condoms more the disease would be placed in check. Also, if women were more equal with men and actually had say of whether or not a condom was used, it wouldn't be such a problem (in Africa or the US). Of course, trying to convince them that condoms are of the Devil is not good--I flatly disagree with that policy.
But I think what we are going up against is culture and and economics. Economics because in the US and in Africa, poor women are the most rapidly growing infected group. Primarily though, culture, because if monogamy were more prevalent and prostitution less prevalent and condoms more acceptable the problem wouldn't be so great. (There are some unspeakable African cultural practices that spread AIDS to infants, there was a blurb in Science a while back).

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gene90
Member (Idle past 3823 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 22 of 143 (25039)
11-30-2002 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by John
11-30-2002 11:10 AM


It can also be argued that a viral agent is the ultimate cause for the AIDS pandemic.
You know what I meant.
Absolutely. That is why the RCC's position is so infuriating. They must radically change the culture before their policy will have any effect, but during the time it takes to do that 100 million people die and a great many more suffer the repercussions.
I agree with that. It's foolish that outside groups trying to curb the pandemic are working against each other.

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 Message 21 by John, posted 11-30-2002 11:10 AM John has replied

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gene90
Member (Idle past 3823 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 28 of 143 (25160)
12-01-2002 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by nator
12-01-2002 4:30 PM


quote:
The spectre of "you are going to be rightly punished for wnating and having sex!" rears it's ugly, Puritain(sic) head.
Well now, you've got to use common sense here. It's one thing to restrict yourself to one partner. It's another to frequent prostitutes. Also they shouldn't refuse to use condoms. I think that the AIDS epidemic is at least partially (maybe mostly) the fault of economics (prostitution) and culture (lack of monogamy).
This is very simple to understand but it isn't what people want to hear. In a typical instance, when the New York gay community was first asked to be less promiscuous, the speakers were villified as "'anti-gay f*g***s', homophobes, fearmongers, and fools" (Laurie Garrett, The Coming Plague, p 292)
Although it is possible to be infected with HIV without engaging in improper behavior (ex: bad transfusions, needle pricks) the fact is that most cases are contracted through immoral acts and behavioral shortcomings. That is why there is an AIDS stigma.
[This message has been edited by gene90, 12-01-2002]

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 Message 27 by nator, posted 12-01-2002 4:30 PM nator has replied

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gene90
Member (Idle past 3823 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 33 of 143 (25300)
12-02-2002 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by nator
12-02-2002 12:58 PM


Schraf, when you feel like making a substantive reply, by all means, do so.
While I'm waiting, perhaps I should dress in solid black, wait till dark, and stand on the Interstate and see what happens.
Most people get diseases because it is part of their environment. The problem with virtually all cases of this disease is that they get AIDS because they can't keep their pants on or get over their recreational chemicals. It's rather difficult to excuse that behavior. Almost as if they are deliberately out looking for it.
[This message has been edited by gene90, 12-02-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by nator, posted 12-02-2002 12:58 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by nator, posted 12-10-2002 9:23 AM gene90 has replied

  
gene90
Member (Idle past 3823 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 47 of 143 (26249)
12-10-2002 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by nator
12-10-2002 9:23 AM


quote:
"Just Say No", Gene?
That's right.
quote:
Tell an African woman whose main value as a wife is to produce children to refuse sex with her husband and see how far it gets you.
I'm not suggesting they refuse sex with their husbands. I'm suggesting that their husbands should have sex only with their wives, and vice versa.
quote:
You have of late let a very definite superior tone come through in your posts.
That's because, until as of late, you haven't been on the opposite end.
Since I actively began opposing you and others that I had not before, the tone of your posts have changed. They are more condescending, more self-righteous, and arrogant. Apparently believing in God is a mark of intellectual inferiority, and I have been branded.
Plus I see that the "respect" I used to see for my posts amongst the old-timers was only skin deep. It never was about the quality of my arguments, only whether or not I agree with you. I see this when we talk about God, politics, and anything which we disagree on. And when we talk about evolution even the other evolutionists have ceased to expound upon my ideas.
Of course, this loss of respect works both ways.
quote:
I object to your constant moralizing. It is arrogant and irritating.
You're entitled to your opinion.
quote:
You come across as a hard, unbending person.
Well that's unfortunate. The truth is hard sometimes. I'm only the messenger of common sense: that if you control yourself, you're a lot better off. I don't see anything uncompassionate about that, and I don't think I'm callous for but none of the dissenting opinions on my posts surprise me anymore.
[This message has been edited by gene90, 12-10-2002]

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 Message 46 by nator, posted 12-10-2002 9:23 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
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gene90
Member (Idle past 3823 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 52 of 143 (26298)
12-11-2002 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by John
12-11-2002 9:43 AM


So they're bitter, and they hate morals.
I used to disbelieve the Fundie stereotype of atheists, but it seems to be getting more and more accurate all the time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by John, posted 12-11-2002 9:43 AM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by John, posted 12-11-2002 11:22 AM gene90 has replied

  
gene90
Member (Idle past 3823 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 54 of 143 (26306)
12-11-2002 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by John
12-11-2002 11:22 AM


quote:
This follows from my synopsis of the cultural conditions described in the OT?
How do you know God approved of those cultural conditions?

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 Message 53 by John, posted 12-11-2002 11:22 AM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by John, posted 12-12-2002 1:52 AM gene90 has replied

  
gene90
Member (Idle past 3823 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 63 of 143 (26420)
12-12-2002 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by John
12-12-2002 1:52 AM


What's wrong with polygamy? My view of it is this: when God allows it is fine, when God doesn't allow it nothing is wrong with it, except that it is against God's will. The Book of Mormon goes into this lightly, and warns against it except when proscribed by God. So far as I am aware, the only part of the Bible that suggests polygamy be avoided is 1 Timothy 3:2, the requirements of the bishop.
And what do you, as an atheist, care about polygamy? Do you not feel that banning it, when it is proscribed by religion, is more religious intolerance?
[This message has been edited by gene90, 12-12-2002]

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 Message 57 by John, posted 12-12-2002 1:52 AM John has replied

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gene90
Member (Idle past 3823 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 75 of 143 (26926)
12-16-2002 11:57 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by nator
12-16-2002 7:31 PM


I disagree with that practice any time minors are involved. And not that I like polygamous behavior, I just think that people should be allowed to do what they feel they should.

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gene90
Member (Idle past 3823 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 76 of 143 (26929)
12-17-2002 12:12 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by nator
12-16-2002 7:24 PM


quote:
Unrealistic
This is the unbending part I guess. AIDS is avoidable. If they won't avoid it, there's nothing I or anybody else here can do.
quote:
But what if he didn't?
Then it's his fault and she'll get the disease. And by the way, I do suspect that most of Africa's problem stems from male misbehavior.
quote:
Or, are you saying that I never noticed it before now because we have often been on the smae side of an issue?
Yes. I've always been accused of being snobby and condescending. This is nothing new, only the group accusing me of being snobby and condescending is different.
And by the way, I think it is because I am rather arrogant sometimes.
quote:
So have yours, Gene.
They have changed towards you and your ilk because of the criticism I suddenly seem to be getting all the time, especially regarding my choice of religion.
quote:
No, it is the fact that you are using sloppy debate tactics more and more, and illogical arguments
There may be some truth to that claim. I'm always outnumbered now and I have never been able to hold up a decent debate when outnumbered. I've lost debates to YECs that way in other forums, not because I couldn't outdo their arguments but because I was put into a rush to keep up and got very sloppy. Plus I can't debate at all once I lose my cool.
Also, I seem to be up against more experienced and more skillful opposition than the average, newcomer YEC that stumbles in here.
So it's not that my debate style is necessarily getting worse it could just mean that (1) I'm under more pressure (2) the opposition is stronger and (3) you're paying attention to my arguments for the first time.
quote:
You certainly come across as uncaring and seem to be saying that people with AIDS get what they deserve.
I'm not going to say that they deserve anything. Disease doesn't work like that. It has a random aspect to it. A lot of people are suffering who did nothing wrong to contract the disease. And then you have the children orphaned by the disease. I am however saying that this epidemic could be brought under control if people were more monogamous and, as you suggested, better educated. Behavior still plays a huge part in this epidemic.
[This message has been edited by gene90, 12-17-2002]

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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gene90
Member (Idle past 3823 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 91 of 143 (28255)
01-01-2003 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Jovianboy
12-18-2002 7:35 PM


Don't get your hopes up. The fact is that quite a few of my fellow evolutionists have an axe to grind with Christianity. We Christians are "evil", "stupid", and "dishonest". And we were recently (on this board) compared to the KKK.
Then there is resistance to the obvious. Time and again in this very thread I have pointed out that Africa's problem with AIDS is behavioral. If there were a behavioral change AIDS would not be infecting >20% of the population in some areas. When I do post common sense I get replies like this:
quote:
"Just Say No", Gene? Give me a break. Life is more complicated for most of the rest of the world.
Life's complicated isn't it? I guess maybe I shouldn't point out to somebody that if they don't want lung cancer they shouldn't smoke twelve packs a day and that if they don't want to get hit by a speeding vehicle they shouldn't wander out into busy highways. Could it be that I'm turning uncaring and arrogant? Maybe. I guess I could be caring and give kids reflective stickers so that when they play in the street at night cars will see them and maybe slam on the brakes. Or maybe I could just teach them not to play in the road...oh wait that's the "uncaring" and "heartless" and "puritanical" thing to do...after all isn't it their right to play in a busy highway?
And incidentally, this board, in many threads, is not "Creationism vs Evolution" it is "Atheism vs Christianity". As an old-timer I have had the poor fortune of watching this site degenerate into what it is. Note the reference in the first message of this thread to "bead jinglers". Sounds a little like a racial slur doesn't it?
[This message has been edited by gene90, 01-02-2003]

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Replies to this message:
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gene90
Member (Idle past 3823 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 92 of 143 (28315)
01-02-2003 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by metatron
12-18-2002 8:49 AM


quote:
Isn't america the "civilized" one?.
This isn't about civility this about the law forcing me to pay for somebody elses' abortion in some Pacific Rim country. Now why should I have to pay for it when I don't even believe abortion is necessarily morally acceptable?
I don't see anything "civilized" about the boot of government carrying out a travesty with my tax dollars and I'm glad to see the current administration is doing something about it.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by metatron, posted 01-05-2003 10:10 AM gene90 has replied

  
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