Why must we believe *before* we die?

2 things mainly. One is subjective, and one is not.
I feel a physical manifectation of the Holy Spirit when he ministers to me. My body feels like it is plugged into an electric socket, but in a good way, almost orgasmic. Of course people will think I am crazy, or there is something else is wrong with me, and it is my own brain making me feel like that for one mental reason or another. But the timing of those feelings have been "tested" by myself, and they can make no sense sometimes, and have nothing to do with what I think is God. Sometimes he is just nudging me to do something, and when I ask, I get an answer, in my thoughts (no voices in head). Of course I was never told to ride a comet, or kill someone. I stand corrected, let me rephrase that please. The 2 should be separated, non-believers, and people who are angry at God, and choose not to follow him, and tend to teach that, or impose that to others. There are many here in this forum who do that. Which is fine, that is there freedom, thats what makes this America. But it doesn't give God a fair chance sometimes. What do I know.I could say that I was for the most part surrounded by non-believers, or unbelievers? my whole life.
What I see now that I actually go to a church, and I am surrounded by all kinds of Christians, is young people who grow up in a Spirit filled Christian household, and come to know the Lord at an early age. Something I feel I would have never had the chance to do, because of my surroundings, and what was taught to me. The truth was concealed from me, I had to find it myself. Which is probably the way God wanted me to find him, and knowing my stubborness, he's right.I get amazed at the youth when the are able to discern for themselves if there is a God or not, at an early age. I wasn't able to.

Apparently he didn't think so himself.

I'm sorry but it seems you are simply incapable of reading. Please show me in Matthew 25 where Jesus says they did those things because they were righteous?You can't. It is not in there.Jesus says in very plain words that it is those that did those things who are saved. Who did those things.The others, the goats, like you and Faith, are surprised. They react in shock. The Goats are Christians, they call him Lord.It's Christians that will be damned for the most part, not Atheists and Agnostics. They'll do just fine. Hell will be filled with Christians.Look at it in everyday terms. It's easier for a camel to get through the eye of a needle than for a Christian to achieve salvation. How does GOD know your heart, by the pompous piety preached or by how one behaves?This message has been edited by jar, 10-03-2005 03:35 PM

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Oh, I just meant "according to traditional theology."

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I feel a physical manifectation of the Holy Spirit when he ministers to me. My body feels like it is plugged into an electric socket, but in a good way, almost orgasmic. Of course people will think I am crazy, or there is something else is wrong with me, and it is my own brain making me feel like that for one mental reason or another.

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Do you believe is it possible for people's emotional states to produce physical sensations?Additionally, do you believe that these physical responses can be encouraged and/or learned through practice?Lastly, is it possible for a person to be fooled into thinking that a physical sensation is caused by one thing but that it is self-caused?

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But the timing of those feelings have been "tested" by myself, and they can make no sense sometimes, and have nothing to do with what I think is God. Sometimes he is just nudging me to do something, and when I ask, I get an answer, in my thoughts (no voices in head). Of course I was never told to ride a comet, or kill someone.

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You haven't tested anything.You have already decided that those feelings you get are to be ascrbed to God, and you just look around for anything happening in your life and say "oh, right, so THAT'S what that feeling was about.Well, there's always something difficult going on in people's lives.If there seems to be no rhyme or reason to the timing of these feelings, why do you ascribe them to anything at all?

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I stand corrected, let me rephrase that please. The 2 should be separated, non-believers, and people who are angry at God, and choose not to follow him, and tend to teach that, or impose that to others.

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OK

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There are many here in this forum who do that. Which is fine, that is there freedom, thats what makes this America. But it doesn't give God a fair chance sometimes. What do I know.

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God created the entire universe. Why does he need any help?

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I could say that I was for the most part surrounded by non-believers, or unbelievers? my whole life.

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Really? You were surrounded by people who all called themselves Athiests? Parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, friends, teachers, neighbors?All atheists?

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What I see now that I actually go to a church, and I am surrounded by all kinds of Christians, is young people who grow up in a Spirit filled Christian household, and come to know the Lord at an early age.

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That's called "cultural religious training", rat.

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I get amazed at the youth when the are able to discern for themselves if there is a God or not, at an early age. I wasn't able to.

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They have so much cultural indoctrination and reinforcement to believe, why wouldn't they?It clearly is expected of them, and it would greatly displease their parents to believe otherwise, and other faiths or non-belief is greatly feared and discouraged in the social environment, so why is it a surprise that the kids come out believing?Almost all little kids in the US are taught to believe in Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, and the Easter Bunny, too, but are expected to grow out of it.

that's all very nice but, like Jar said, it's not what Jesus taught.You've only quoted Paul and his disciples (the authors of John and Acts)...oh and James, totally out of context.You fail to mention what the people who were closer to Jesus's time, i.e. the authors of the synoptics, wrote about him. The synoptics' message is clear: you're judged on what you do!

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

I can fling whole passages from Mark, Matt & Luke at you, in which Jesus says or suggests that we are judged on our behaviour, if it makes you feel any better. so who do I believe, James (works) or Paul(grace) ? or Jesus ?

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

It is possible. No, I am a dumb ass. Thats way too complicated for me. More than we know. Since what has happened to me, has changed me physically, and mentally, I now walk in the light. I do my best to be a representative of who and what God is. But I lack of course, but its ok.My point is, that I am in now in a position (I won't go into too much detail here) where people I meet with now pour their hearts out unto me. Remember, I am just a plumber HVAC business owner, not a shrink. I have been able, with the help of the Holy Spirit to help these people, and tell them what they need to hear. Sometimes, I do not even have to talk, but just listen. It's so freaky. It can't be me, but God in me, and I thank God for the opportunity to do his work. This is happening in way that never happened before, and the change was instant. And actually God told me it would happen. There is no logical explanation for all that has happened. I could write volumes about it. But you will no doubt come up with some crazy explanation, which by all rights will be possible, but hey, thats what makes it all subjective. Remember, I am a placebo. 90% of the time, the reason is immediatly apparent, 9% of the time I need all of a few seconds to figure out what God is trying to tell me. The other 1%, may take some prayer, and life lessons for me to understand. You never stop growing. Yes, that is why I said "What do I know" I thought you would understand that. I am more humble than I appear in these forums. It was a mix, but 90% of people closest to me, did not practice thier beliefs, or did not believe at all. I was sent to CCD class, but at 8 years old, I decided that the whole catholic religion was a bunch of BS, and God did not exist, and if he did, no one on earth really knew who he was. I lived that way until I was 25, when I had my first child, and a light bulb went off in my head, and I started reading the bible little by little, very little. Took me another 13 years to arrive here.But none of the people that surrounded me in my life, really knew who the Holy Spirit was, or lived by it. Maybe my Aunt knew, but I am not even sure if she knew it then. In the last 21 months, since having this experience, I have asked every Catholic I meet, who and what the Holy Spirit is, and none can answer me. Yes, I am aware of that, and I can usually detect when someone is fake, and really doesn't know the Spirit of God, if I am trying to. I don't like to judge, just let peoples actions speak for themselves. Because the truth has not been kept from them. Usually the opposite happens, the child will rebel. Thank you for the bedtime story Aunt schraf, I can go to sleep now, after I pray.

I know it's not. I've said already that this passage doesn't show the mechanism of salvation. Choosing a passage where no mechanism is shown and using to show the mechanism I say is the mechanism is hardly a valid arguement. But I didn't chose the passage. Salvation by faith is easily shown. Just not from every passage you may chose. When I come into Dublin I hand in my passport and am admitted as an Irisn person. Having a passport is a consequence of being Irish not a cause of being Irish. If I am Irish, I am expected to have a passport. If I am saved, I am expected to have good works.Salvation by works describes a mechanism as does salvation by faith. But there is no mechanism described here. You could use this passage perhaps in combination with a more mechanistic one but not on it's own (neither can I for that matter). One swallow doesn't make a summer. One passage doesn't make a mechanism. I know the claims of Christians can be galling. Anybody who speaks with the seemingly exclusive language of a Christian - expecially when they say they are on the 'inside' is going to sound arrogant and conceited and holier-than-thou.If it is true then how else would it sound?Edited to clarifyThis message has been edited by iano, 04-Oct-2005 11:16 AM

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

Couple of problems here Legend.You're either making the assumption that the bible is the inerrant word of God or your not. Either all of it is or none of it is. (unless you have some way of discerning which). How do you know the words attributed to Jesus are his words unless the bible is considered inerrant? And if the bible is inerrant, meaning it is the word of God, then what's wrong with Pauls writings?Paul met Jesus and became an apostle. There is no mention of his meeting being a vision in the text. Apostles were all made such by Jesus. Paul couldn't have called himself an apostle on front of the other 'real' apostles if they didn't consider his authority equal to theirs (in fact Paul rebuked Peter when he went astray of the Gospel of Christ).John was not a disciple of Paul, he was a disciple of Jesus. The apostle that Jesus loved in fact.

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

Legend could probably answer this much more eloquently than I could, but I felt compelled to write something brief in response to your last post.I'm prepared to accept the bible is either the inerrant word of God or it isn't (putting aside the rather confusing possibility that an inerrant bible has been diluted or otherwise corrupted either in its composition or translation).I think Legend's point was that if you believe in an inerrant bible, then it would be very dangerous to put more emphasis on "faith" than "works" - because there is plenty of evidence in the bible to suggest that works is where its all at, so to speak. Legend doesn't have to believe that the bible is inerrant to draw your attention to what is in essence YOUR problem: how to reconsile contradictory biblical exhortions.Cheerio,Tusko x

The current discussion would need, I feel, to assume the bible is inerrant otherwise it can go nowhere. If inerrant then it is the word if God. You seem to accept this yourself.The only true measure by which any part of scripture can be measured is itself. External references are not without use but if they conflict with scripture then the former must yield.That there are verses in the bible that would seem to indicate one thing can only be determined to be such if backed up elsewhere. There is ample discussion in the bible about works. I don't disagree that works and deeds are not important. It's just that they play no part at all in our salvation. Picking out verses that talk of works but which don't tie into a mechanism of salvation is simply verses that talk of works. Extrapolating such verses to say it is by works is pointless. Scripture must tell us - not extrapolationIf one is looking for an explaination of mechanism then they have to deal with Romans 1-8. A couple of inferred references to mechanism extracted elsewhere don't overcome what is a masterpiece of sequentially arranged steps as to mechanism which includes dealing with objections - not least of which is confirmation that religiousity and observance of law (works) are not part of the plan.

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

All of scripture or none. The Gospels recording of Jesus words have equal weight if all is inspired and inerrant. Jesus raised the stakes in a world doing it's best (and probably succeeding to a reasonable degree) to adhere to Mosaic law (10 commandments). Most listening who wouldn't have committed Mosaic adultery would have been shaken by Jesus telling them that "if you so much as look at a woman with lust in your heart you have committed adultery"Jesus set an impossible standard. He never implied that trying to achieve the standard would suffice. He said unless you reach the standard you are doomed. No one can reach the standard that Jesus set. All are doomed by the standardWhich kind of ties in with Pauls telling us that the purpose if the standard (or law) was not that we achieve it. The purpose of this high standard - Gods standard - is to show us that we can't reach it this standard. "The law is a schoolmaster to lead you to Christ" - the only one who could reach the standard on our behalfIts all got to fit. If it doesn't it may be that scripture doesn't tell us enough to know for sure. But speculation isn't a route here. Silence is. As far as mechanism of salvation however, scripture is anything but silent. Salvation by faith does, Salvation by trying your best doesn't. Trying your best is not in scripture....

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

I'm making no assumptions either way, just looking at the text and its context. why the dichotomy? why do you exclude the possibility that some of it might be true, or based on true events, and some of it might be simply mythology and fiction propagated by people with ulterior motives ?I have no way of discerning which is which beyond reasonable doubt, but I can make educated guesses based on the historical and cultural context of the books and passages.For example, you want me to believe that the Gospel of John was written by John, the disciple of Jesus. You'd have me believe that an octagenerian, uneducated Jew (according to the Gospel) wrote a semi-mystical portrait of Jesus full of Hellenistic influences that differs radically in the portrayal of Jesus from the much earlier accounts presented in the Synoptics. I don't buy that.It's possible, but not likely. I don't but it's irrelevant. I'm pointing out that the words of Jesus from some accounts contradict teachings from other accounts. You're the one who's trying to reconcile contradictory teachings, so maybe you could tell me why *you* think the bible is inerrant. If the bible is inerrant then that means that God is inconsistent and self-contradicting.Or just doesn't want to communicate with us in a clear, unambiguous manner.You figure out which. Paul doesn't claim he physically met Jesus:(II Corinthians 12:2-4 )
I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven -- whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. And I know that this man was caught up into Paradise -- whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows -- and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter.His companions in the Acts accounts (Acts 9:7, 22:9) certainly didn't see any other persons around.So all indications are that Paul had a vision. (he was also possibly epileptic, but that's another story). Paul was a self-declared apostle. Peter and James opposed him. The only authority he had was self-assigned. Please see couple of paragraphs above. Also read some of Geza Vermes's books, great insight from a Jewish historical perspective.

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

But it does, and does so in very clear and unambiguous terms. Maybe you missed it. Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.Pretty clear. Pretty simple.Your comment about passports is just silly. It has absolutely nothing to do with the passage we're discussing. Maybe you missed it. All Nations Not the Irish, not the Righteous, All Nations. The problem is that most people understand the message of Jesus and Christianity. Atheist understand the message. Buddhists understand the message. Agnostics understand the message. Rastafarians understand the message. The message is really simple.Try to do right.Love GOD and love others as you love yourself.Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.It's only many Christians that don't get it.It's not Believe in the Bible.It's not Profess His Name.The Gift was given. Freely given. Given to all mankind.Your actions speak louder than your words.The Atheist who helps someone reach a can on the top shelf or unload a shopping cart Loves GOD.The Agnostic that stoops to talk to the child from the child's eye level Loves GOD.The Buddhist that smiles as he passes you on the street and holds the door open for you Loves GOD.The Rastafarian that speaks out against poverty Loves GOD.The Christian that oppresses gays does not.It really is as simple as that.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion