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Author Topic:   Did Adam and eve really have a choice?
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 713
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 151 of 219 (248628)
10-03-2005 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by iano
10-03-2005 2:24 PM


Re: We meet again
Besides the fact that someone had to put it into them the idea of eating when designing them, they also had to be told that this action was described by the word 'eat' How did they know the meaning of the word. God used the word 'surely' What experience had they of 'unsure' before that? Or was that another word which meant nothing

All completely beside the point.
If they didn't know what "eat" (as a concept, not a word) was until they had experienced doing it then they couldn't know what "die" meant until they experienced it. It would be like trying to explain "yellow" to a who had lived his whole life in complete darkness. You have to take him into the light and show him a buttercup before he has a clue what you are talking about.

And you still haven't shown how Gods foreknowledge affects sufficient choice by man.

In case you hadn't noticed I have never really been arguing that there was no choice per se. My argument always hinged around the fact that God knew what the choice was going to be. He designed the whole system with the intention of everything going exactly the way it did.
After all he can't make a mistake can he?

How can you know what is possible with God? Your (human) understanding of what is and isn't possible is not the limit of what is and isn't possible with God. Or maybe you disagree..

You are doing it again. If it gets too difficult to square away an apparent paradox between two concepts, both portrayed by Christianity, then you come out with the ultimate Christian trump card. How can we as mere Humans understand what might be possible for God?

Well from my understanding of genesis, man was created in God's image. God may be a fair few steps higher up the food chain but we are essentially similar. This means that it should (must) be possible for Human minds to understand the complexity that is God.

Please stop retreating to that place where all paradoxes are simply brushed away and give me a straight answer.

How can God be infallible, all-knowing, all-powerfull and yet NOT have planned out every tiny little detail of our universe.
If HE planned it and HE implemented it then the outcome was utterly inevitable.

THERFORE IT CANNOT BE MY FAULT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 2:24 PM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by iano, posted 10-04-2005 5:35 AM PurpleYouko has responded

  
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 713
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 152 of 219 (248633)
10-03-2005 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by iano
10-03-2005 2:31 PM


Re: We meet again
Your underestimating the seriousness of sin. A belly ache is the wages of eating a dodgy curry. The wages of sin is death. God decides the wages. No point in arguing. Sin is serious.

The sin of eating a poxy apple is enough to condemn the entire human race huh?
Fine have it your way. Next time my kids misbehave I'll shoot them. Will that make God happy?

You have an appreciation of the world around you. What you cannot say (and keep a straight face) is that God is stupid. There is too much around to suggest otherwise.

Sorry to disappoint you but if God is real then I firmly believe he is either the most stupid assed moron to ever live OR he is pure evil.

Not even God can make a creature who will love him freely but who has no free will. That's simply illogical not a lack of omnipotence

So God does have limits then. If there is ANYTHING that he CAN'T do then he ISN'T omnipotent is he?
I thought he was supposed to be immune to Paradox. Your posts so far have certainly portrayed him that way.

God made the rules.
God played the game HIS way, knowing the outcome in advance and yet he STILL screwed up. That is pretty darn stupid in my book.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 2:31 PM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by iano, posted 10-04-2005 5:21 AM PurpleYouko has not yet responded

  
Funkaloyd
Inactive Member


Message 153 of 219 (248716)
10-03-2005 9:20 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by nator
10-03-2005 3:00 PM


Re: He chose this reality, not us
schrafinator writes:

Faith writes:

A Christian starts out trying to show the human need for a Savior and soon encounters all these objections to God's allowing sin at all instead of gratitude that a way out is offered. It's a strange conversation. I think I will try to avoid it in future.

If one follows your viewpoint back to it's logical conclusion, that is where it leads.

If your portrayal of God is correct, then god isn't some big hero for "offering a way out", because he put us in this terrible situation Himself, on purpose, knowing it would cause us immense suffering.

God needlessly set up humanity to fail, like rats in a science experiments.

And yet many of the rats have Stockholm Syndrome.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by nator, posted 10-03-2005 3:00 PM nator has not yet responded

  
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 4627 days)
Posts: 708
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 154 of 219 (248731)
10-03-2005 10:41 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Brian
09-24-2005 9:08 AM


Re: Bad God!
Brian writes:

Okay, let's forget the date, this still means that we have to believe that a talking snake persuaded a woman to eat a magical fruit that suddenly filled the person who ate it with a great deal of knowledge.

I think that you may possibly be taking this Genesis account to literally.

The talking snake sounds like an allegory of other religions around the area -- religions which venerated the snake as something holy.

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil, on the other hand, sounds to me more like some kind of hallucinagenic plant -- something which the forgeign religions in the area did use by the way.

In fact, many ancient religions used hallucingenic drugs (from both plants & snakes) in order to gain "spiritual wisdom"...thereby "opening their eyes"...

:eek:

Brian writes:

So, if we do not believe that this happened, then what incentive is there to seek out God?

Do you believe the above allegories I've suggested might make more sense than a literal snake and some magical fruit?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Brian, posted 09-24-2005 9:08 AM Brian has not yet responded

    
iano
Member (Idle past 19 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 155 of 219 (248778)
10-04-2005 4:49 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by nator
10-03-2005 2:38 PM


Re: We meet again
schraf writes:

I thought that the reason God murdered every living thing in The Flood was because He wasn't pleased with what He had created (except for Noah and his family), and he needed to start all over again

Murder is unrighteous killing. God is righteous thus he can't murder. Not being pleased with what a free-will created being does is not the same as having made a mistake. We cannot comment because we do not know what it is like to create a free-willed being. Having a child is about the closest we can come - except we don't give it life - he does. Yet, as the mother of any junkie will tell you, pleasure in the being she 'created' is not usually the emotion that first springs to mind. Like God, she may love it - buts hates what it does


"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....
This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by nator, posted 10-03-2005 2:38 PM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by nator, posted 10-05-2005 8:53 PM iano has responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 19 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 156 of 219 (248781)
10-04-2005 4:53 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by nator
10-03-2005 2:40 PM


Re: We meet again
schraf writes:

How do you know God hasn't created automatons who only believe they have free will?

Because it doesn't fit. How can you punish an automaton (Adam and Eve) who is programmed to disobey you and at the same time be perfectly just? Illogical.


"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....
This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by nator, posted 10-03-2005 2:40 PM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by nator, posted 10-05-2005 9:00 PM iano has responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 19 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 157 of 219 (248782)
10-04-2005 4:57 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by nator
10-03-2005 2:43 PM


Re: We meet again - (I sure hope it will be up there)
iano writes:

"Something from-something-we-don't-understand-yet-so-call-it-nothing" is not quite what I meant. The article demonstrates why it's called Quantum theory, not Quantum fact...

Schraf writes:

There's also Gravitational Theory. Do you disagree that there is a force called "gravity" that can also be demonstrated to be a fact as?

How I got on to naturalistic something-from-nothing-being-impossible I can't remember but back I ain't going.


"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....
This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by nator, posted 10-03-2005 2:43 PM nator has not yet responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 19 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 158 of 219 (248783)
10-04-2005 5:10 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by Heathen
10-03-2005 3:21 PM


Re: We meet again
Crevolution writes:

this is fast becoming pointless and fruitless.

I agree. Man saying that God can't do certain things when he most patently can is ludicrous. It makes sense that man had choice. The whole story makes sense if man had choice. Nothing in this story...or the rest of the bible makes sense if he didn't.

A truly impartial observer, looking at the evidence as he finds it and who doesn't force things were they don't want to go, who doesn't let his own pre-disposition rule his judgement - would conclude man had choice. Not the opposite.

But if you consider it stalemate then it's stale.. m8

:)


"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....
This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Heathen, posted 10-03-2005 3:21 PM Heathen has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by Funkaloyd, posted 10-04-2005 5:45 AM iano has responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 19 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 159 of 219 (248787)
10-04-2005 5:21 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by PurpleYouko
10-03-2005 5:03 PM


Re: We meet again
purpleyouko writes:

The sin of eating a poxy apple is enough to condemn the entire human race huh? Fine have it your way. Next time my kids misbehave I'll shoot them. Will that make God happy?

Sin is disobeying God. It doesn't matter what it is. You don't see it as serious. But your forgetting the standard that God sets. Not because he wants to make it difficult for us but because he IS that standard. Perfection. And perfect relationship is what he is after, what he is going to have. His perogative. He sets the adgenda, not us. We can choose to partake in his plan or not. Ours is not to set the plan. Your opinion of his plan is irrelevant.

Sorry to disappoint you but if God is real then I firmly believe he is either the most stupid assed moron to ever live OR he is pure evil.

Both are from your own perspective. And you are entitled to it. But your perspective isn't what counts. You aren't running the show PY - he is. Exercising your choice to reject God is yours to make. But all you affect is the manner in which you'll meet him. Choosing against doesn't free you of him

in my book.

When it becomes the world best selling book, loved by millions, a comfort in times of trouble, a source of hope and joy then let me know - I'll buy a couple of copies

:)

This message has been edited by iano, 04-Oct-2005 10:22 AM


"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....
This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by PurpleYouko, posted 10-03-2005 5:03 PM PurpleYouko has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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 Message 194 by nator, posted 10-05-2005 9:12 PM iano has responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 19 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 160 of 219 (248788)
10-04-2005 5:35 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by PurpleYouko
10-03-2005 4:55 PM


We'll meet again...hope it's there, hope it's then
purpleyouko writes:

THERFORE IT CANNOT BE MY FAULT

But the thing is you KNOW it is. When you do something rotten you are aware of all the selfishness and deceit that went into it. You have a grandstand view of all your own motivations and can observe the mechanisms in action. In the few short moments before self-justification and excuses come to cover over our actions and hide them from view, we KNOW it was our fault.

I don't know how the day of judgement will go but I imagine it to be like watching a all-enveloping video screen where not only is there picture and sound recordings of all that we did but also the thoughts in our own minds played back too. All without the accompanying excuses. Every motivation will be laid bare for what it was and if we do now get pangs of guilt and shame it will only be a fraction of what it will be like when all is exposed before his gaze.

Nowhere to run to escape that gaze either. We will be shown we were at fault and how. It won't be a theory with the result always tentitive. It will be fact.

And it won't be pretty for anyone who choses to enter that one-on-one with God.

This message has been edited by iano, 04-Oct-2005 10:35 AM


"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....
This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by PurpleYouko, posted 10-03-2005 4:55 PM PurpleYouko has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by PurpleYouko, posted 10-04-2005 9:03 AM iano has not yet responded

  
Funkaloyd
Inactive Member


Message 161 of 219 (248789)
10-04-2005 5:45 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by iano
10-04-2005 5:10 AM


Re: We meet again
iano writes:

It makes sense that man had choice. The whole story makes sense if man had choice. Nothing in this story...or the rest of the bible makes sense if he didn't.

I agree, but the point is not that humans don't have free will. It's that humans cannot have free will if God is both omniscient and the creator (it doesn't make sense).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by iano, posted 10-04-2005 5:10 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by iano, posted 10-04-2005 9:23 AM Funkaloyd has not yet responded
 Message 196 by Phat, posted 10-06-2005 6:51 AM Funkaloyd has not yet responded

  
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 713
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 162 of 219 (248807)
10-04-2005 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 160 by iano
10-04-2005 5:35 AM


Re: We'll meet again...hope it's there, hope it's then
When you do something rotten you are aware of all the selfishness and deceit that went into it.

I really can't remember having ever done anythng rotten. I'm not saying I am perfect but I can't recall any occasion where I have done something that required self justification.

Anyway, still beside the point.

I have just noticed that you are only answering certain parts of my posts. Mainly the parts that I just threw in for effect or because I was feeling frustrated.

What I want answers for is the BIG question.

How is it possible for God to be simultaineously ALL-KNOWING (past future present), ALL-POWERFUL (can do ANYTHING presumably) and yet not be 100% responsible for everything that ever happens?

This is a purely logical conundrum and you already indicated that God is subject to logic in an earlier post.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by iano, posted 10-04-2005 5:35 AM iano has not yet responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 19 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 163 of 219 (248811)
10-04-2005 9:23 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by Funkaloyd
10-04-2005 5:45 AM


Re: We meet again
Funkaloyd writes:

I agree, but the point is not that humans don't have free will. It's that humans cannot have free will if God is both omniscient and the creator (it doesn't make sense).

We're not in a position to comment on that. What God is able and unable to do beyond OUR understanding is for God to know. Purple Youko sees this as a Christian escape hatch but doesn't point out anything particularily wrong with it. There is nothing in the bible that says we can understand Gods existance - or that we are privy to his ways. The bible clearly states his ways are beyond us.

Gods reaction to sin make sense in the light of Adam and Eves free, unpredetermined choice. Anything else makes no sense.

This is going around in circles and the areas for new entry into the issue don't seem to be appearing. Stalemate I'm concluding. Time to call a halt for me...

L8r dudes/dudesses

:)


"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....
This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Funkaloyd, posted 10-04-2005 5:45 AM Funkaloyd has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by Heathen, posted 10-04-2005 10:14 AM iano has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12175
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 164 of 219 (248816)
10-04-2005 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by Heathen
10-03-2005 3:21 PM


Do any of us really have a choice?
Lets reframe this OP that YOU created. In order to do so, I will ask you to clarify a few minor points.
creavolution,post#1,regarding the fall writes:


Following from a previous thread, Christians on this site have given me this impression:
God created adam and Eve, with all their inherant flaws, God recognised these flaws insofar as he knew what choice they would make when approached by the serpent. i.e. He knew that they would fall.

PB writes:

Is this your impression? If so, lets reframe to say that this is your impression of me. Lets go one on one,OK?

My question is:why set this chain of events in motion in the first place if he knew so much suffering would come from it? why set things up as they were/are when, as an all powerful Creator. He could have tweaked a few things here or there to prevent the Fall and hence all the suffering in the world. He sat Idly by and watched it unfold. How can anyone worship such a being other than through fear of further cruelty? I think someone already used the Battered wife analogy... very apt.

PB writes:

To whom are you asking this question? to the EvC human wisdom panel in general, or to me? And who is this battered wife? The Bride of Christ?

Iano says that
We were born on a default path to hell. But Adam and Eve weren't so shackled.
PB writes:

Yes, Iano must have said it since you quoted it.


Oh but they were.... God knew their weakness... God designed them with this weakness... God placed them in the Garden of Eden with the Tree. God knew what choice they would make... they were pawns in a game, characters in a play, doomed to play out what had been written. they were most certainly shackled. shackled to the speeding train which would become the trainwreck that is Humanity.Iano writes:
Lotto numbers will be pulled on Saturday evening in Ireland. If you could see the future would it affect the numbers that are pulled or are you just seeing it happen before it happens?

If I designed/built the machine and the lotto balls knowing that a certain sequence of numbers would certainly pop out given the right circumstances (which I ensured came about). then it would most certainly affect the outcome.

PB writes:

So if you built a human with a lotta balls and knew what that human would choose, that human really had no choice?

Yes. I believe (within the assumption that genesis is truth) from the moment of Design that choice was removed. there was only one course of action that would happen. God knew this. Yet he still let it happen.
PB writes:

so are you saying that you assume that your designer left you no choice? What choice do you want?


If God is so desperate for our love he could have it, easily. But he chose this world, this way, this humanity. And he seeks to blame us for it.
PB writes:

You now say If God.. ... and then you say But God chose this world

..I contend that this God is not a loving God. he is a cruel and sadistic god.

contend \ken-tend\ vb 1 : to strive against rivals or difficulties 2 : argue 3 : maintain, assert contender n
So you assert that God is not a loving God?

Shall we continue to assert ourselves verbally?

This message has been edited by Phat, 10-04-2005 08:18 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Heathen, posted 10-03-2005 3:21 PM Heathen has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by Heathen, posted 10-04-2005 6:59 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Heathen
Member (Idle past 94 days)
Posts: 1042
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 165 of 219 (248818)
10-04-2005 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by iano
10-04-2005 9:23 AM


Re: We meet again
iano writes:

The whole story makes sense if man had choice


My god! I think he's got it! So if man didn't have a choice the whole thing makes no sense? right?
I think you're finally getting the point I'm making. Now. If you can just remove those blinkers and see, that the situation as it stood was essentially a done deal (as you yourself pointed out). i.e. there was no real choice.

iano writes:

A truly impartial observer, looking at the evidence as he finds it and who doesn't force things were they don't want to go, who doesn't let his own pre-disposition rule his judgement - would conclude man had choice. Not the opposite.


"evidence" you say? "pre-disposition" you say? Where is this evidence then? evidence that Eve ate an apple, evidence of a talking snake? evidence of a god who doesn't allow suffering and cruelty of a massive scale everyday? where is it?
iano writes:

because he IS that standard. Perfection


So in his perfection he created a doomed world? perfect... just perfect.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by iano, posted 10-04-2005 9:23 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by iano, posted 10-04-2005 10:53 AM Heathen has responded

  
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