Did Adam and eve really have a choice?

Your underestimating the seriousness of sin. A belly ache is the wages of eating a dodgy curry. The wages of sin is death. God decides the wages. No point in arguing. Sin is serious. You have an appreciation of the world around you. What you cannot say (and keep a straight face) is that God is stupid. There is too much around to suggest otherwise. I don't see how he could seeing what he was playing for. Not even God can make a creature who will love him freely but who has no free will. That's simply illogical not a lack of omnipotence

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

Murder is unrighteous killing. God is righteous thus he can't murder. Not being pleased with what a free-will created being does is not the same as having made a mistake. We cannot comment because we do not know what it is like to create a free-willed being. Having a child is about the closest we can come - except we don't give it life - he does. Yet, as the mother of any junkie will tell you, pleasure in the being she 'created' is not usually the emotion that first springs to mind. Like God, she may love it - buts hates what it does

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

Because it doesn't fit. How can you punish an automaton (Adam and Eve) who is programmed to disobey you and at the same time be perfectly just? Illogical.

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

How I got on to naturalistic something-from-nothing-being-impossible I can't remember but back I ain't going.

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

I agree. Man saying that God can't do certain things when he most patently can is ludicrous. It makes sense that man had choice. The whole story makes sense if man had choice. Nothing in this story...or the rest of the bible makes sense if he didn't.A truly impartial observer, looking at the evidence as he finds it and who doesn't force things were they don't want to go, who doesn't let his own pre-disposition rule his judgement - would conclude man had choice. Not the opposite.But if you consider it stalemate then it's stale.. m8

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

Sin is disobeying God. It doesn't matter what it is. You don't see it as serious. But your forgetting the standard that God sets. Not because he wants to make it difficult for us but because he IS that standard. Perfection. And perfect relationship is what he is after, what he is going to have. His perogative. He sets the adgenda, not us. We can choose to partake in his plan or not. Ours is not to set the plan. Your opinion of his plan is irrelevant. Both are from your own perspective. And you are entitled to it. But your perspective isn't what counts. You aren't running the show PY - he is. Exercising your choice to reject God is yours to make. But all you affect is the manner in which you'll meet him. Choosing against doesn't free you of him When it becomes the world best selling book, loved by millions, a comfort in times of trouble, a source of hope and joy then let me know - I'll buy a couple of copiesThis message has been edited by iano, 04-Oct-2005 10:22 AM

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

But the thing is you KNOW it is. When you do something rotten you are aware of all the selfishness and deceit that went into it. You have a grandstand view of all your own motivations and can observe the mechanisms in action. In the few short moments before self-justification and excuses come to cover over our actions and hide them from view, we KNOW it was our fault.I don't know how the day of judgement will go but I imagine it to be like watching a all-enveloping video screen where not only is there picture and sound recordings of all that we did but also the thoughts in our own minds played back too. All without the accompanying excuses. Every motivation will be laid bare for what it was and if we do now get pangs of guilt and shame it will only be a fraction of what it will be like when all is exposed before his gaze.Nowhere to run to escape that gaze either. We will be shown we were at fault and how. It won't be a theory with the result always tentitive. It will be fact.And it won't be pretty for anyone who choses to enter that one-on-one with God.This message has been edited by iano, 04-Oct-2005 10:35 AM

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

We're not in a position to comment on that. What God is able and unable to do beyond OUR understanding is for God to know. Purple Youko sees this as a Christian escape hatch but doesn't point out anything particularily wrong with it. There is nothing in the bible that says we can understand Gods existance - or that we are privy to his ways. The bible clearly states his ways are beyond us.Gods reaction to sin make sense in the light of Adam and Eves free, unpredetermined choice. Anything else makes no sense.This is going around in circles and the areas for new entry into the issue don't seem to be appearing. Stalemate I'm concluding. Time to call a halt for me...L8r dudes/dudesses

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

Evidence of Eve eating an apple - Genesis
Evidence of a talking snake - GenesisYou've have been arguing against man having choice based on detailed examination not only of Genesis but on Biblical descriptions of God such as his omnipotence and foreknowledge. The only basis for anything you've been arguing is an interpretation of the bible. You have in arguing from it given it credence as evidence within the confines of this discussion. You have used the Bible as your evidence. Now you say it not evidence?How can this be...??What has suffering and cruelty to do with this discussion. It has been about free-will has it not?Somehow the Crevolution tag has lost it's lustre.

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

I've rearranged your post to show the contradiction. You are arguing internally with respect to Genesis all the way through this thread. Then you step outside to say it's some old tale. That it is "some old tale" is a valid a response in a thread possibly entitled "The Bible is true". But not in an biblically internal discussion. This action of going external is an illogical escape hatch... there was no need to use it. The discussion was stalemated anyway. I can't turn anyone. God turns folk to him not man. Me, I'm a signpost

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

Be wary of Jars logic Crevo. Jar will pose views about God, the means of salvation etc and use quotes from the Bible and argue that they mean specific things. Then he'll say it's fairytale. Ask yourself the question: how can someone hope to comment accurately about anything regarding God when they say the material on which they rely to glean any knowledge about him - is all suspect. If he says not all of it should be considered suspect, ask him how he knows which is which and on what basis he trusts this knowledge.Catch 22. Either trust the Bible is the word of God and get down to the nitty gritty of figuring out what it means - or don't accept that which means none of it can be trusted and objective comment is impossible.Of course one can decide to hold fire one way or the other and retain the right to check it out, ie: examine it internally on the one hand, whilst maintaining overall disbelief when the 'study period' ends. But that isn't what Jar does. He talks using objective terminology. Which he cannot do.

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

You may. I can't see how it makes any difference what one actually believes about the Bible when it comes to finding out what it says. My point was that its arguments can only be evaluated internally, examined with a view to how it fits together with itself (as if, even if it is accepted only for the purposes of intellectual assessment, it is the word of God). As soon as one moves outside that frame of reference then no conclusions can be arrived at. Only speculation.What can one say about the picture formed by a jigsaw with an infinite amount of pieces..I can't see much prophet in that

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

Crevo, if we decide to sit a play Monopoly we play within the confines of the game. The confines of the game of deciding what Genesis has to say about Adam and Eves choice can't have somebody say Genesis is some folk tale. It may be: you might believe that and I don't. That is irrelevant to the particular game. What you've done here is decided that I can't buy a hotel in Monopoly because Monopoly money isn't real. Your stepping outside the bounds of the dicsussion. There is no need to believe Genesis to be true to examine if the Adam and Eve therin had choice. Truth of it is irrelevant to that discussion.The impartial observer I mentioned was a person who within the confines of the game makes a judgement based on what's in front of him. He knows outside the confines of the game that Monopoly money isn't real but inside the game it is. Inside the game of Genesis, God gives choice because as God he can. Inside the game God can create something from nothing, inside the game God can know everything. Inside the game you cannot expect to understand with your limited mind the things that God can do. Even outside the game you should see this. That you don't understand eg: General Relativity doesn't mean General Relativity doesn't exist.The Bible is consistant with Adam and Eve having choice. It is logical that they did. Stating that they didn't is illogical. It would be like stating (in the game of Monopoly) that one didn't have to move one box to the next in sequence - which would make a nonsense of the rest of the game.Are you here to find out if it all fits together - or just state they didn't have choice (without being able to overcome that logically God can do what you can't imagine) and decide the whole thing is nonsense?

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

Which means we can throw poetry out the window because it is impossible to know what metaphor and allegory mean? Willy nilly verse plucking or rejecting books of the bible is the kind of crudity I was warning about.It is possible to deal with these things in the bible when the meaning taken is amply backed up elsewhere within it. Themes begin to arise and like pieces of a puzzle, other bits fall comfortably into place. Jar is currently arguing "damnation by works" elsewhere. The Bible can't be shown to make that argument. The pieces don't fit.Nobody has it all correct. Nobody ever will. There are many things that are plain mystery - was the 1st day 24 hours or something else. No matter. The essential aspects: Who is God, who is man in relation to God. What is Gods plan, How do we fit into the plan etc can be easily gleaned if one wants to glean it

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

On what basis do you use the bible to dicuss God. What element of it can be trusted to give you any information about God and why trust that piece?

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....