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Author Topic:   Did Adam and eve really have a choice?
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 140 of 219 (248547)
10-03-2005 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by iano
10-03-2005 1:03 PM


Re: We meet again
Who is the person referred to in Genesis 3:15, the offspring of the woman who will crush the serpents head and whose heel the serpent will bruise. (Hint: God had a plan of salvation then). Whose goose was cooked on the cross (Hint: it wasn't Jesus)
Why did God NEED a plan of salvation?
Was (is) he not All-Powerfull?
Could he not just have said "That's all right Adam. Don't do it again. Just to remind you to behave in future here is a really bad belly ache for a day or two."
But no! He had to punish the entire Human race for a thousand generations. Not only that but he set some stupid assed scheme in motion which involved having his son crucified a couple thousand years in the future.
If God was truly all powerfull AND all-loving AND all-knowing then he would have done it some other way.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 1:03 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 2:31 PM PurpleYouko has replied

  
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 151 of 219 (248628)
10-03-2005 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by iano
10-03-2005 2:24 PM


Re: We meet again
Besides the fact that someone had to put it into them the idea of eating when designing them, they also had to be told that this action was described by the word 'eat' How did they know the meaning of the word. God used the word 'surely' What experience had they of 'unsure' before that? Or was that another word which meant nothing
All completely beside the point.
If they didn't know what "eat" (as a concept, not a word) was until they had experienced doing it then they couldn't know what "die" meant until they experienced it. It would be like trying to explain "yellow" to a who had lived his whole life in complete darkness. You have to take him into the light and show him a buttercup before he has a clue what you are talking about.
And you still haven't shown how Gods foreknowledge affects sufficient choice by man.
In case you hadn't noticed I have never really been arguing that there was no choice per se. My argument always hinged around the fact that God knew what the choice was going to be. He designed the whole system with the intention of everything going exactly the way it did.
After all he can't make a mistake can he?
How can you know what is possible with God? Your (human) understanding of what is and isn't possible is not the limit of what is and isn't possible with God. Or maybe you disagree..
You are doing it again. If it gets too difficult to square away an apparent paradox between two concepts, both portrayed by Christianity, then you come out with the ultimate Christian trump card. How can we as mere Humans understand what might be possible for God?
Well from my understanding of genesis, man was created in God's image. God may be a fair few steps higher up the food chain but we are essentially similar. This means that it should (must) be possible for Human minds to understand the complexity that is God.
Please stop retreating to that place where all paradoxes are simply brushed away and give me a straight answer.
How can God be infallible, all-knowing, all-powerfull and yet NOT have planned out every tiny little detail of our universe.
If HE planned it and HE implemented it then the outcome was utterly inevitable.
THERFORE IT CANNOT BE MY FAULT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 2:24 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by iano, posted 10-04-2005 5:35 AM PurpleYouko has replied

  
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 152 of 219 (248633)
10-03-2005 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by iano
10-03-2005 2:31 PM


Re: We meet again
Your underestimating the seriousness of sin. A belly ache is the wages of eating a dodgy curry. The wages of sin is death. God decides the wages. No point in arguing. Sin is serious.
The sin of eating a poxy apple is enough to condemn the entire human race huh?
Fine have it your way. Next time my kids misbehave I'll shoot them. Will that make God happy?
You have an appreciation of the world around you. What you cannot say (and keep a straight face) is that God is stupid. There is too much around to suggest otherwise.
Sorry to disappoint you but if God is real then I firmly believe he is either the most stupid assed moron to ever live OR he is pure evil.
Not even God can make a creature who will love him freely but who has no free will. That's simply illogical not a lack of omnipotence
So God does have limits then. If there is ANYTHING that he CAN'T do then he ISN'T omnipotent is he?
I thought he was supposed to be immune to Paradox. Your posts so far have certainly portrayed him that way.
God made the rules.
God played the game HIS way, knowing the outcome in advance and yet he STILL screwed up. That is pretty darn stupid in my book.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 2:31 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by iano, posted 10-04-2005 5:21 AM PurpleYouko has not replied

  
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 162 of 219 (248807)
10-04-2005 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 160 by iano
10-04-2005 5:35 AM


Re: We'll meet again...hope it's there, hope it's then
When you do something rotten you are aware of all the selfishness and deceit that went into it.
I really can't remember having ever done anythng rotten. I'm not saying I am perfect but I can't recall any occasion where I have done something that required self justification.
Anyway, still beside the point.
I have just noticed that you are only answering certain parts of my posts. Mainly the parts that I just threw in for effect or because I was feeling frustrated.
What I want answers for is the BIG question.
How is it possible for God to be simultaineously ALL-KNOWING (past future present), ALL-POWERFUL (can do ANYTHING presumably) and yet not be 100% responsible for everything that ever happens?
This is a purely logical conundrum and you already indicated that God is subject to logic in an earlier post.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by iano, posted 10-04-2005 5:35 AM iano has not replied

  
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