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Author Topic:   Did Adam and eve really have a choice?
Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 122 of 219 (247658)
09-30-2005 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by Faith
09-30-2005 7:42 AM


Re: He chose this reality, not us
faith writes:
But most people wouldn't have it any other way, really have no desire to be innocent as Adam and Eve were.
Not sure what world you live in faith, or what you consider to be 'most people'. You come across as being very naive.
I'm not sure if you're aware but there is a hell of a lot of suffering and cruelty in this world right now. the majority of the worlds population live in 'developing' countries, or to give it it's more PC term 'The Majority World' where hunger and poverty is rife. people fight tooth and nail just to survive.
If genesis is to be believed God is punishing these people for what Adam and Eve Chose. poverty, disease, war, prejudice, torture, murder, rape, abuse...the list goes on, all this as a result of eve eating an apple?
what kind of god is this? I'll choose innocence anyday.(But of course, it has all been written, or foreseen, there only one outcome, this outcome. so there is no real choice)
iano: re your drunk driving analogy... very poor... expected more. You getting desperate?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Faith, posted 09-30-2005 7:42 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Faith, posted 09-30-2005 2:58 PM Heathen has replied

  
Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 124 of 219 (247755)
09-30-2005 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Faith
09-30-2005 2:58 PM


Re: He chose this reality, not us
faith writes:
I think I will try to avoid it in future
I have to admit to being confused by your participation in a 'Debate and Discussion' forum if you seek to avoid topics which challenge your view.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Faith, posted 09-30-2005 2:58 PM Faith has not replied

  
Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 131 of 219 (247938)
10-01-2005 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by Phat
10-01-2005 1:42 PM


Re: The Jury has reached a verdict
phatboy writes:
The majority of this jury, however, is pushing for God as an outdated concept of human imagination
Not sure that's what this thread was driving at, I assumed (for sake of argument) that God exists, and genesis was truth, and questioned whether Adam and Eve had Choice i.e. who was responsble for the Fall, Man or God. I would say the jury so far (within the premise set above) would Say God.
I don't think God should be banished from our imaginations, rather It should be understood to exist solely within our imaginations.
even saying that I'm not sure howmuch I agree with it... the Notion of God (real or imaginary) means a lot to a great many people and provides strength (even if it is through a placebo effect).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Phat, posted 10-01-2005 1:42 PM Phat has not replied

  
Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 141 of 219 (248561)
10-03-2005 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by iano
10-03-2005 1:14 PM


Re: We meet again
iano writes:
If your playing poker you play with 4 aces in the deck. You play within the confines of the game. 200 aces might make for a differnt game but poker says 4 aces are sufficient. Sufficient choice you have. Sufficient choice they had. God says you have sufficient choice. Otherwise he could not condemn you. He wouldn't be just.
If in doubt analogise until your far off the point and hopefully people won't notice you're backed tightly in a corner.
You don't choose what cards you're dealt. they come out in the order they sit.
So God says we have sufficient choice? sufficient for what? to fullfil his masterplan of damning man to hell? and causing untold suffering?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 1:14 PM iano has not replied

  
Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 150 of 219 (248596)
10-03-2005 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by iano
10-03-2005 2:24 PM


Re: We meet again
iano writes:
And you still haven't shown how Gods foreknowledge affects sufficient choice by man
this is fast becoming pointless and fruitless.
creavolution writes:
and I've said a few times earlier... it's not so much that foreknowledge 'influences' the choice, but the creation of the environment, the situation, the person making the choice. God created all these so he had total influence on the choice. The mere fact that the choice is foreknown, to me, indicates that there is only one outcome, that there is no alternative, i.e. that there is no choice.
creavolution writes:
what I'm saying (again and again) God created ALL the circumstances to such a degree that he knew what the outcome would be.
Please answer me. WHERE IS THE CHOICE HERE?
creavolution writes:
God created ALL the circumstances to such a degree that he knew what the outcome would be. This would suggest there was only one outcome, no alternative. Thus no real choice.
etcetera etcetera etcetera.......

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 2:24 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by iano, posted 10-04-2005 5:10 AM Heathen has not replied
 Message 164 by Phat, posted 10-04-2005 10:01 AM Heathen has replied

  
Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 165 of 219 (248818)
10-04-2005 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by iano
10-04-2005 9:23 AM


Re: We meet again
iano writes:
The whole story makes sense if man had choice
My god! I think he's got it! So if man didn't have a choice the whole thing makes no sense? right?
I think you're finally getting the point I'm making. Now. If you can just remove those blinkers and see, that the situation as it stood was essentially a done deal (as you yourself pointed out). i.e. there was no real choice.
iano writes:
A truly impartial observer, looking at the evidence as he finds it and who doesn't force things were they don't want to go, who doesn't let his own pre-disposition rule his judgement - would conclude man had choice. Not the opposite.
"evidence" you say? "pre-disposition" you say? Where is this evidence then? evidence that Eve ate an apple, evidence of a talking snake? evidence of a god who doesn't allow suffering and cruelty of a massive scale everyday? where is it?
iano writes:
because he IS that standard. Perfection
So in his perfection he created a doomed world? perfect... just perfect.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by iano, posted 10-04-2005 9:23 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by iano, posted 10-04-2005 10:53 AM Heathen has replied

  
Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 167 of 219 (248856)
10-04-2005 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by iano
10-04-2005 10:53 AM


Impartial believer? I don't think so.
iano writes:
A truly impartial observer, looking at the evidence
iano writes:
Evidence of Eve eating an apple - Genesis
Evidence of a talking snake - Genesis
A 'truely impartial' observer would not accept a 2000 year old manuscript as evidence. They would need proveable, verifiable evidence. If they believed what was in the bible at face value they would not be impartial.
iano writes:
What has suffering and cruelty to do with this discussion. It has been about free-will has it not
Yes, and this supposed Free will has brought about man's fall. I have been contending that God is responsible for the fall seeing as he controlled At least indrectly, every contributing factor to the Fall. If God is responsible for the fall he is responsible for all the suffering and cruelty in the world. as without the fall we would have remained in paradise, no?
iano writes:
Somehow the Crevolution tag has lost it's lustre.
Hoping to turn me were you?
This message has been edited by Creavolution, 10-04-2005 01:36 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by iano, posted 10-04-2005 10:53 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by iano, posted 10-05-2005 6:11 AM Heathen has replied

  
Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 169 of 219 (248935)
10-04-2005 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by Phat
10-04-2005 10:01 AM


Re: Do any of us really have a choice?
Apologies for the delay PB, missed this reply.
PB writes:
Is this your impression? If so, lets reframe to say that this is your impression of me. Lets go one on one,OK
Your assumption, not mine... but ok.
PB writes:
To whom are you asking this question? to the EvC human wisdom panel in general, or to me? And who is this battered wife? The Bride of Christ?
I am asking any Christian who can answer it satisfactorily, without ignoring the contradictions. I want to understand how a Christian can believe something like Genesis when it seems (to me) to go against any idea of a loving, Omnipotent God.
the battered wife was an analogy used in the "random God Rant' Thread, to illustrate the relationship some Christians have with God. Worship through (or as a result of) fear.
PB writes:
So if you built a human with a lotta balls and knew what that human would choose, that human really had no choice?
Not in any real sense, no. I was trying to show that if you create/design all the parameters to such an extent that you know what the outcome will be, any notion of choice is an illusion.
PB writes:
so are you saying that you assume that your designer left you no choice? What choice do you want?
Rather saying that the bible blames man(woman?) for the fall, the real culprit is God.
PB writes:
You now say If God.. ... and then you say But God chose this world
Not sure what your point is here, perhaps i should have said "God is portrayed on the one hand to be...But on the other hand He chose..."
PB writes:
Shall we continue to assert ourselves verbally?
Again, unclear on your point here. If you're attempting to have a dig at my grammar or writing skills, I'll concede, I'm an engineer, not a writer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Phat, posted 10-04-2005 10:01 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by jar, posted 10-04-2005 7:08 PM Heathen has replied

  
Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 171 of 219 (248939)
10-04-2005 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by jar
10-04-2005 7:08 PM


Re: Genesis
I get the feeling from your posts we'd agree... that's no fun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by jar, posted 10-04-2005 7:08 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by jar, posted 10-04-2005 7:18 PM Heathen has replied

  
Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 173 of 219 (248945)
10-04-2005 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by jar
10-04-2005 7:18 PM


Re: Genesis
feel free to give you two pen'th worth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by jar, posted 10-04-2005 7:18 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by jar, posted 10-04-2005 7:27 PM Heathen has replied

  
Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 175 of 219 (248950)
10-04-2005 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by jar
10-04-2005 7:27 PM


Re: Genesis
Is that pure opinion? or based on scripture?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by jar, posted 10-04-2005 7:27 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by jar, posted 10-04-2005 7:30 PM Heathen has replied

  
Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 177 of 219 (248954)
10-04-2005 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by jar
10-04-2005 7:30 PM


Re: Genesis
Can you illustrate where?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by jar, posted 10-04-2005 7:30 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by jar, posted 10-04-2005 7:49 PM Heathen has replied

  
Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 179 of 219 (248961)
10-04-2005 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by jar
10-04-2005 7:49 PM


Re: Genesis
Jar writes:
It's not a FALL but a gift.
so why is hard work, pain, risk of death and a scratched up belly a gift? and where does god/the bible say it is a gift?
seems to me it was certainly meant as punishment

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by jar, posted 10-04-2005 7:49 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by jar, posted 10-04-2005 7:55 PM Heathen has replied

  
Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 181 of 219 (248969)
10-04-2005 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by jar
10-04-2005 7:55 PM


Re: Genesis
So God/the bible doesn't explicitly say that "the fall" is a gift then?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by jar, posted 10-04-2005 7:55 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by jar, posted 10-04-2005 8:26 PM Heathen has replied

  
Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 183 of 219 (248972)
10-04-2005 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by jar
10-04-2005 8:26 PM


Re: Genesis
I would tend to agree.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by jar, posted 10-04-2005 8:26 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by iano, posted 10-05-2005 6:22 AM Heathen has replied

  
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