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Author | Topic: Did Adam and eve really have a choice? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Heathen Member (Idle past 1283 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
faith writes: But most people wouldn't have it any other way, really have no desire to be innocent as Adam and Eve were. Not sure what world you live in faith, or what you consider to be 'most people'. You come across as being very naive. I'm not sure if you're aware but there is a hell of a lot of suffering and cruelty in this world right now. the majority of the worlds population live in 'developing' countries, or to give it it's more PC term 'The Majority World' where hunger and poverty is rife. people fight tooth and nail just to survive. If genesis is to be believed God is punishing these people for what Adam and Eve Chose. poverty, disease, war, prejudice, torture, murder, rape, abuse...the list goes on, all this as a result of eve eating an apple?what kind of god is this? I'll choose innocence anyday.(But of course, it has all been written, or foreseen, there only one outcome, this outcome. so there is no real choice) iano: re your drunk driving analogy... very poor... expected more. You getting desperate?
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1283 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
faith writes: I think I will try to avoid it in future I have to admit to being confused by your participation in a 'Debate and Discussion' forum if you seek to avoid topics which challenge your view.
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1283 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
phatboy writes:
Not sure that's what this thread was driving at, I assumed (for sake of argument) that God exists, and genesis was truth, and questioned whether Adam and Eve had Choice i.e. who was responsble for the Fall, Man or God. I would say the jury so far (within the premise set above) would Say God. The majority of this jury, however, is pushing for God as an outdated concept of human imagination I don't think God should be banished from our imaginations, rather It should be understood to exist solely within our imaginations. even saying that I'm not sure howmuch I agree with it... the Notion of God (real or imaginary) means a lot to a great many people and provides strength (even if it is through a placebo effect).
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1283 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
iano writes: If your playing poker you play with 4 aces in the deck. You play within the confines of the game. 200 aces might make for a differnt game but poker says 4 aces are sufficient. Sufficient choice you have. Sufficient choice they had. God says you have sufficient choice. Otherwise he could not condemn you. He wouldn't be just. If in doubt analogise until your far off the point and hopefully people won't notice you're backed tightly in a corner. You don't choose what cards you're dealt. they come out in the order they sit. So God says we have sufficient choice? sufficient for what? to fullfil his masterplan of damning man to hell? and causing untold suffering?
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1283 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
iano writes: And you still haven't shown how Gods foreknowledge affects sufficient choice by man this is fast becoming pointless and fruitless.
creavolution writes:
and I've said a few times earlier... it's not so much that foreknowledge 'influences' the choice, but the creation of the environment, the situation, the person making the choice. God created all these so he had total influence on the choice. The mere fact that the choice is foreknown, to me, indicates that there is only one outcome, that there is no alternative, i.e. that there is no choice.creavolution writes:
what I'm saying (again and again) God created ALL the circumstances to such a degree that he knew what the outcome would be.Please answer me. WHERE IS THE CHOICE HERE? creavolution writes:
etcetera etcetera etcetera.......
God created ALL the circumstances to such a degree that he knew what the outcome would be. This would suggest there was only one outcome, no alternative. Thus no real choice.
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1283 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
iano writes:
My god! I think he's got it! So if man didn't have a choice the whole thing makes no sense? right? The whole story makes sense if man had choiceI think you're finally getting the point I'm making. Now. If you can just remove those blinkers and see, that the situation as it stood was essentially a done deal (as you yourself pointed out). i.e. there was no real choice. iano writes:
"evidence" you say? "pre-disposition" you say? Where is this evidence then? evidence that Eve ate an apple, evidence of a talking snake? evidence of a god who doesn't allow suffering and cruelty of a massive scale everyday? where is it?
A truly impartial observer, looking at the evidence as he finds it and who doesn't force things were they don't want to go, who doesn't let his own pre-disposition rule his judgement - would conclude man had choice. Not the opposite.iano writes:
So in his perfection he created a doomed world? perfect... just perfect.
because he IS that standard. Perfection
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1283 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
iano writes: A truly impartial observer, looking at the evidence iano writes:
A 'truely impartial' observer would not accept a 2000 year old manuscript as evidence. They would need proveable, verifiable evidence. If they believed what was in the bible at face value they would not be impartial.
Evidence of Eve eating an apple - GenesisEvidence of a talking snake - Genesis iano writes: What has suffering and cruelty to do with this discussion. It has been about free-will has it not Yes, and this supposed Free will has brought about man's fall. I have been contending that God is responsible for the fall seeing as he controlled At least indrectly, every contributing factor to the Fall. If God is responsible for the fall he is responsible for all the suffering and cruelty in the world. as without the fall we would have remained in paradise, no?
iano writes:
Hoping to turn me were you? Somehow the Crevolution tag has lost it's lustre. This message has been edited by Creavolution, 10-04-2005 01:36 PM
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1283 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
Apologies for the delay PB, missed this reply.
PB writes:
Your assumption, not mine... but ok.
Is this your impression? If so, lets reframe to say that this is your impression of me. Lets go one on one,OKPB writes:
I am asking any Christian who can answer it satisfactorily, without ignoring the contradictions. I want to understand how a Christian can believe something like Genesis when it seems (to me) to go against any idea of a loving, Omnipotent God. To whom are you asking this question? to the EvC human wisdom panel in general, or to me? And who is this battered wife? The Bride of Christ?the battered wife was an analogy used in the "random God Rant' Thread, to illustrate the relationship some Christians have with God. Worship through (or as a result of) fear. PB writes:
Not in any real sense, no. I was trying to show that if you create/design all the parameters to such an extent that you know what the outcome will be, any notion of choice is an illusion.
So if you built a human with a lotta balls and knew what that human would choose, that human really had no choice?PB writes:
Rather saying that the bible blames man(woman?) for the fall, the real culprit is God.
so are you saying that you assume that your designer left you no choice? What choice do you want?PB writes:
Not sure what your point is here, perhaps i should have said "God is portrayed on the one hand to be...But on the other hand He chose..."
You now say If God.. ... and then you say But God chose this worldPB writes:
Again, unclear on your point here. If you're attempting to have a dig at my grammar or writing skills, I'll concede, I'm an engineer, not a writer.
Shall we continue to assert ourselves verbally?
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1283 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
I get the feeling from your posts we'd agree... that's no fun.
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1283 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
feel free to give you two pen'th worth
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1283 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
Is that pure opinion? or based on scripture?
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1283 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
Can you illustrate where?
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1283 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
Jar writes: It's not a FALL but a gift. so why is hard work, pain, risk of death and a scratched up belly a gift? and where does god/the bible say it is a gift? seems to me it was certainly meant as punishment
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1283 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
So God/the bible doesn't explicitly say that "the fall" is a gift then?
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1283 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
I would tend to agree.
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