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Author | Topic: Did Adam and eve really have a choice? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
iano Member (Idle past 1967 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
Crevo writes: Where is this evidence then? evidence that Eve ate an apple, evidence of a talking snake? evidence of a god who doesn't allow suffering and cruelty of a massive scale everyday? where is it? Evidence of Eve eating an apple - GenesisEvidence of a talking snake - Genesis You've have been arguing against man having choice based on detailed examination not only of Genesis but on Biblical descriptions of God such as his omnipotence and foreknowledge. The only basis for anything you've been arguing is an interpretation of the bible. You have in arguing from it given it credence as evidence within the confines of this discussion. You have used the Bible as your evidence. Now you say it not evidence? How can this be...?? What has suffering and cruelty to do with this discussion. It has been about free-will has it not? Somehow the Crevolution tag has lost it's lustre. "Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1310 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
iano writes: A truly impartial observer, looking at the evidence iano writes:
A 'truely impartial' observer would not accept a 2000 year old manuscript as evidence. They would need proveable, verifiable evidence. If they believed what was in the bible at face value they would not be impartial.
Evidence of Eve eating an apple - GenesisEvidence of a talking snake - Genesis iano writes: What has suffering and cruelty to do with this discussion. It has been about free-will has it not Yes, and this supposed Free will has brought about man's fall. I have been contending that God is responsible for the fall seeing as he controlled At least indrectly, every contributing factor to the Fall. If God is responsible for the fall he is responsible for all the suffering and cruelty in the world. as without the fall we would have remained in paradise, no?
iano writes:
Hoping to turn me were you? Somehow the Crevolution tag has lost it's lustre. This message has been edited by Creavolution, 10-04-2005 01:36 PM
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Phat Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Notice what happens when you start questioning the person and not the topic:
Iano writes:
Why did you have to accuse creavolution of being dull? Come on, now! What has suffering and cruelty to do with this discussion. It has been about free-will has it not? Somehow the Crevolution tag has lost it's lustre.He does not trust you any more! Let me ask you something, Iano. Does understanding Genesis=understanding God?
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1310 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
Apologies for the delay PB, missed this reply.
PB writes:
Your assumption, not mine... but ok.
Is this your impression? If so, lets reframe to say that this is your impression of me. Lets go one on one,OKPB writes:
I am asking any Christian who can answer it satisfactorily, without ignoring the contradictions. I want to understand how a Christian can believe something like Genesis when it seems (to me) to go against any idea of a loving, Omnipotent God. To whom are you asking this question? to the EvC human wisdom panel in general, or to me? And who is this battered wife? The Bride of Christ?the battered wife was an analogy used in the "random God Rant' Thread, to illustrate the relationship some Christians have with God. Worship through (or as a result of) fear. PB writes:
Not in any real sense, no. I was trying to show that if you create/design all the parameters to such an extent that you know what the outcome will be, any notion of choice is an illusion.
So if you built a human with a lotta balls and knew what that human would choose, that human really had no choice?PB writes:
Rather saying that the bible blames man(woman?) for the fall, the real culprit is God.
so are you saying that you assume that your designer left you no choice? What choice do you want?PB writes:
Not sure what your point is here, perhaps i should have said "God is portrayed on the one hand to be...But on the other hand He chose..."
You now say If God.. ... and then you say But God chose this worldPB writes:
Again, unclear on your point here. If you're attempting to have a dig at my grammar or writing skills, I'll concede, I'm an engineer, not a writer.
Shall we continue to assert ourselves verbally?
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jar Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Be glad to discuss Genesis with you if you really want to.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1310 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
I get the feeling from your posts we'd agree... that's no fun.
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jar Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Oh well.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1310 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
feel free to give you two pen'th worth
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jar Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
As a Christian I do think that the Genesis myth is important, but ususally misunderstood.
I think the key point is that it explains that we are supposed to know right from wrong and to try to do right. It's not a FALL but a gift. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1310 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
Is that pure opinion? or based on scripture?
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jar Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
I think it is definitely based on scripture.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1310 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
Can you illustrate where?
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jar Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Sure. Let's start with the Genesis story.
In the story, stories actually because there are two of them, mankind is created, pretty much like all the other animals. But then they are tempted and eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. From that moment on they know, they have a responsibility to try to do what is right. But in doing that, they disobey GOD and so he punishes them, Adam & Eve, as well as the serpent. For Adam the punishment is that he'll have to work for food and shelter. For Eve it's that childbirth will be dangerous and painful. For the serpent it's slithering on the ground and that mankind will fear and hate it. That's a classic example of a folk tale explaining life. It covers why we have to work, why childbirth was the number one killer of women, why we fear and hate serpents and why we're expected to know right from wrong. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1310 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
Jar writes: It's not a FALL but a gift. so why is hard work, pain, risk of death and a scratched up belly a gift? and where does god/the bible say it is a gift? seems to me it was certainly meant as punishment
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jar Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Those are punishments for disobedience. That's in the nature of folk tales. The purpose of the story is to explain why we have to work, why we fear serpents, why childbirth often led to the death of the mother and child.
The GIFT is the knowledge of Good and Evil. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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