Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 81 (8950 total)
41 online now:
DrJones*, Hyroglyphx, Theodoric (3 members, 38 visitors)
Newest Member: Mikee
Post Volume: Total: 867,374 Year: 22,410/19,786 Month: 973/1,834 Week: 43/430 Day: 43/63 Hour: 1/3


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Does god have free will?
nwr
Member
Posts: 5587
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 121 of 128 (247310)
09-29-2005 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by Thugpreacha
09-29-2005 12:23 PM


Re: Daddy
By the way, your attribution is wrong. You quoted that text from me, but attributed it to PaulK. I'll take the liberty of correcting that while quoting you.

Phatboy writes:

nwr writes:

Science is skeptical, and willing to overturn the old when the evidence so indicates.

Whereas we can't/won't do that in religion....What is the origin of "religion"?

I don't know the origin of "religion" - i.e. the etymology of the word. I'm not sure why that would matter.

1) What one has been taught? (As Schraff suggests) or..

Okay, you were looking for how we acquire our religions, not the etymology.

I don't think I would agree with "taught". It seems to me that a religion is a set of traditions that one acquires from the culture. If a belief system comes from being taught, but is not part of the traditions of the culture, then it is a cult, not a religion. At least that appears to be the usage.

2) What has been imparted from God to us.

I'm not convinced that anything has been imparted from God to us. It seems to me that it is always the other way around, an attribution of human views to God. Thus we see cases where those on both sides of a disagreement will claim that they are on the side of God.

If well meaning Christians throughout the ages have maintained that they know God and then attempt to be the spokesmen for God, they could fall into the trap of becoming gods themselves...."knowing right from wrong....legislating morality....and attributing it all to divine impartation! :eek:

Regrettably, this is close to what often happens.

I don't think it is a matter of people wanting to become gods. It seems to be an attempt for people to assume an aura of authority, so as to more easily persuade their fellow citizens to listen to them.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-29-2005 12:23 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 515 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 122 of 128 (248133)
10-02-2005 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by b b
09-29-2005 2:35 AM


Re: Daddy
quote:
we became like them (God and his angels who may be called in some religions gods-there is most of the times one God over the rest. ex Zeus) in that we know good from evil.

Right.

We aquired the same ability as God to discern Good from Evil.

quote:
we have the ability to know good and evil; God has the ability to set/change what is good and evil(not that he will change but can).

Right.

If God declared it Good to rape and pilliage, and Evil to nurture and comfort, it would instantly become Good/Evil to do these things.

and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever

and now, unless he reach out to me, and eat of my fruit, and live forever;

quote:
Is this the end of the sentence or did you just happen to leave out the rest?

The rest is irrelevant to the issue of IF Adam and Eve have the same ability as God to discern Good frm Evil. The passage goes on to discuss their punishments.

So, now do you agree that humans, since Adam and Eve ate of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, have exactly the same ability to know Good from Evil as God?

quote:
No,

What?

You just agreed with me abouve that humans, through Adam and Eve eating the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, DO have that ability.

Let me quote you again:

quote:
we became like them (God and his angels who may be called in some religions gods-there is most of the times one God over the rest. ex Zeus) in that we know good from evil.

So, which is it? Do we have the same ability as god to tell the difference between Good and Evil or not?

quote:
because I can read and understand what I'm reading. Newton's law(I think it's Newton but really don't care) of {what goes up must come down} would not be interpreted to say anything about what goes sideways. Only up. Therefore, it says at a literal interpretation

The man is similar to us in that he knows good and evil.


I have no idea what this is supposed to mean.

quote:
What was your grade in English?

Well, I was testing at college level English and reading comprehension when I was in the 7th grade.

quote:
I think it's very convenient how you made both of these say what you want it to say.

I am simply reading the text in a very straightforward way.

So far, you have failed to provide a clear explanation of why my reading is incorrect.

quote:
But most people do this. That's how you get so many religions that use the same bible. For some reason I think you are purposely giving almost correct info. Just tell me what comes after "live forever"

3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Can you please explain why these two passages are important to the matter of if humans have the same ability as God to discern Good from Evil?

(caps mine)
And therefore can MAN judge God's actions or inaction as Good or Evil?

quote:
Answer two questions truthfully for me please, and I'll answer yours. If God comes to earth in the next five minutes and it's without a shadow of a doubt who he is, would you tell him he was wrong for such and such. And if for some reason you are one of the ones who would do this, how would you punish him?

Well, I would first ask what power God has to affect events in the Universe, and why it does not appear that the Universe is looked after by an all-loving, all-powerful God.

If the Bible is correct and I have the same ability as God to know the difference between Good and Evil, AND God really is all-powerful and all-loving, then God would have a great deal of explaining to do for the seeming indifference and downright cruelty God has allowed to happen.

Punishment? If God is all powerful, yet not all-loving, then I don't think there's much I'd be able to do to. It would just be a cruel, vengeful Evil God who's will would be done.

quote:
I think everyone knows what you would really do; I just want to see if you would admit it or weasel out of the questions. Your answer to my questions should reveal my answer to yours. Can a man judge God?

According to the Bible, when Adam and Eve ate of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, they gained the same ability as God to know the difference.

So, it seems that yes, humans can judge God's actions or inaction as Good or Evil, if we have the same ability as God.

Can you please explain how this is not the case?

quote:
People do it everyday when they hate God for taking someone or letting them be taken away. Can you actually pass judgement/punishment on God?

According to the Bible, when Adam and Eve ate of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, they gained the same ability as God to know the difference.

So, it seems that yes, humans can judge God's actions or inaction as Good or Evil, if we have the same ability as God.

Can you please explain how this is not the case?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by b b, posted 09-29-2005 2:35 AM b b has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by b b, posted 10-04-2005 2:49 AM nator has not yet responded

  
b b
Member (Idle past 4476 days)
Posts: 77
From: baton rouge, La, usa
Joined: 09-25-2005


Message 123 of 128 (248762)
10-04-2005 2:49 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by nator
10-02-2005 9:45 AM


Re: Daddy
Yes, you can, in your mind, judge whether his actions are right or not; I'm just saying your opinion of this does not effect the universe. His does.

God basically does what he feels to be right. This does not mean what we think to be right. "Thou shalt not kill" means man should not kill each other. This does not say it would be wrong for God to take someone or allow them to be taken. His commandments were for people. He may reserve certain actions, like retiring lives, for himself. Is that so hard to get. If you believe it or not; that's you. But it does make sense even as a theory. (which is exactly what big bang and evolution are)

Punishment? If God is all powerful, yet not all-loving, then I don't think there's much I'd be able to do to. It would just be a cruel, vengeful Evil God who's will would be done

Vengence is mine. Ever remember that in the bible? I just don't agree with the cruel and evil part. The bible clearly states him to be vengeful I believe. Doesn't it?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by nator, posted 10-02-2005 9:45 AM nator has not yet responded

  
b b
Member (Idle past 4476 days)
Posts: 77
From: baton rouge, La, usa
Joined: 09-25-2005


Message 124 of 128 (248763)
10-04-2005 3:02 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by DrJones*
09-29-2005 3:38 AM


Re: Daddy
It was Abraham, you claim to be christian and yet don't know this?

That wasn't in my requirements for becoming a christian. Let me see yours. Maybe I have the outdated version? Let me see.

So you admit to being a sociopath.

No, because for some strange reason he never asked me to kill anyone. Moron

No I wouldn't, I'd tell your mythical being to go

Idiot, do you talk to mythical beings? "If" (which did start the question) he appeared in front of you and told you to kill yourself, he's no longer a mythical being. What you really look in the face of God and tell him what you just said? I bet there's plenty of humans you would be to cowardly to say that too. Really and truly you probably can only talk big and bold on a forum. Tell it to your boss-he'll fire you. Tell it to God-He'll "fire" you permanently. Please don't be foolish.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by DrJones*, posted 09-29-2005 3:38 AM DrJones* has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Funkaloyd, posted 10-04-2005 4:53 AM b b has not yet responded
 Message 127 by DrJones*, posted 10-04-2005 7:34 PM b b has not yet responded

  
Funkaloyd
Inactive Member


Message 125 of 128 (248780)
10-04-2005 4:53 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by b b
10-04-2005 3:02 AM


Re: Daddy
b b writes:

...he never asked me to kill anyone.

You're an unrealised sociopath?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by b b, posted 10-04-2005 3:02 AM b b has not yet responded

  
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 4894 days)
Posts: 708
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 126 of 128 (248827)
10-04-2005 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Lammy
10-03-2004 11:29 PM


Does God have a free-will?
I usually post long responses -- but I'll keep this short and simple.

No. I don't believe that God has a free-will.

If indeed he already knows the future, then it seems to me that he also already knows what he will do in the future too.

In saying this I admit it may yet be found that God is above these logical "time-space" contraints, that his timeless omnipresence somehow enables him to step outside his own future choices -- somehow embodying all possibilities at once and that he himself is the locus of all that could ever be -- but this seems to lead to a very complicated mess.

I guess I think of the old question, "Can God make a stone so heavy he can't lift it?" Like the question of God having a free-will, my simple answer is no.

I don't believe that God can outdo himself -- he is the very definition is his own limitations.

Hope that answer was short enough.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Lammy, posted 10-03-2004 11:29 PM Lammy has not yet responded

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2033
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 127 of 128 (248955)
10-04-2005 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by b b
10-04-2005 3:02 AM


Re: Daddy
No, because for some strange reason he never asked me to kill anyone.

Killing people is not one of the requirements for being a sociopath.

do you talk to mythical beings? "If" (which did start the question) he appeared in front of you and told you to kill yourself, he's no longer a mythical being.

That statement of mine needed a bit of clarification. I meant mythical as in "He's not who/what you think he is", sure there might be an entity out there posing as the christian god but he's full of hot air, don't beleive the hype.

Tell it to God-He'll "fire" you permanently

No he won't cause he doesn't have that kind of power, he's a charlatan.


If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist!
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by b b, posted 10-04-2005 3:02 AM b b has not yet responded

  
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 4894 days)
Posts: 708
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 128 of 128 (248998)
10-05-2005 1:41 AM


The Unique One
As a general response, I guess I'll note that the text in Genesis actually literally says: "Man how now become like the unique one among us..."

I know many will disagree with me, but I do not think the "unique one" is a reference to God. Many things fall in place for me if the unique one is understood as reference to the adversary.


  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019