Why must we believe *before* we die?

I'm afraid discussion on your basis is not possible for me Legend. It is possible (if challenging) to investigate to see if it is consistant with itself internally but impossible to say anything for certain if it is exmained with a view to the external. The discussion would just turn into another "this theory, that theory, the other theory" about whatever piece was under discussion.That teachings appear to conflict for example could be exmained internally to see if they do. I suggest there are none - if the internal comparison is done (which would indicate at least something uncanny, if not inerrant, about scripture). But if one account is dismissed - by your educated guess - then we get into a discussion about educated guesses and whether this schools educated guess is better than the other schoolsThanks but no thanks

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

A pretty clear, pretty simple statement of salvation by works/trying this is not. My comment about passports was simply to illustrate that the righteous will have attributes of righteousness. A passport doesn't make you Irish it is an attribute of being Irish. It's an analogy Jar. Just an analogy Why then is this not mentioned in the bible in relation to salvation. "Do unto" not "Try to do unto". "Love thy neighbour" not "try to love thy neighbour" Where is the mechanism "try and you will be saved" If everybody and his brother gets that message then it must be somewhere obvious for all but us Christians to see. When I say clear I mean as clear as the statement for example "It is by faith you are saved not by works". Just in relation to 'trying'

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

It is mentioned. Infact it's the central tenet of Salvation. GOD forgives everyone. GOD knows we cannot be perfect, he knows we cannot succeed. But we must try.Paul says "Fight the Good fight", "Run the race". He does not say "Win the fight", "Win the race", but to just try.That's all.Try.Salavation is given, given to all mankind. Free. Gratas.It doesn't matter what you believe, GOD will judge you on your behavior.Message from Genesis...You know Right from wrong.Message from the NT...You are forgiven.Message from Jesus and Paul...Try to do what's right.It really is that simple.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

but it's not my basis - we're discussing what's in the Bible, right ? you're just making an initial assumption that I'm not making. but surely, if two accounts are contradictory to each other, we must decide which one is closer to the truth. If witness A tells you that the incident happened in London and witness B tells you the incident happened in Glasgow, you must decide whether the incident happened in London or Glasgow. You're making the equivalent of deciding that the incident took place in the UK. That way both witnesses are technically correct.anyway, I respect your decision to refuse to accept that the Bible may be wrong. I was once there myself. Best of luck.

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

Paul was writing to Christians - not any old body. The church in Rome, in Galatia, in Corinth etc. These are pastoral letters written to people who are believers. Every discourse at the beginning of his letters makes that clear that he is talking to those who are saved. His exhortation to 'try' is to people who are already saved. Not to people who are not. "You are a son - act like one" is a theme throughout all these letters if you want to travel that path a bit..You've mentioned "salvation by trying" (I presume you mean God forgives all except those who don't try (hard enough) -thus salvation relies on trying). Have you got something other than tenuous regarding that. Something clear, specifically linked to trying like "it is by faith you are saved - not by works"Like, I gave about a dozen non-works related verses which ascribed righteousness via faith/belief. If salvation-by-trying is a cert then there must be some direct statement supporting this.

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

If two accounts appear to contradict each other we must first decide whether they do indeed contradict before figuring which is correct. And that must be done internally. Measuring scripture against scripture - as the saying goes.The workshop manual for my Yamaha says, "release the front wheel nut" in one place. In another it says "tighten the front wheel nut". I can assume contradiction or I might look at context and purpose of the particular passage where this is said. But the manual as a whole should not contradict itself internallyI suggest I have a decent overview say of the mechanism of salvation. I would discuss apparent contradiction in the light of that overview - not take statement out of that context. Within context they fit perfectly

I have never said that you can earn salvation. Salvation is given, freely, to everyone, Christian, Buddhist, Rastafarian, Muslim, Jew, Hindu, Atheist, Agnostic, Satanist, Pagan.It's given, done, gratus.To ALL mankind.Not just to believers.To ALL mankind.But you can blow it. Your behavior can screw up your chances. And Christians are far more likely to screw it up than non-Christians.If you read Matthew 25 it is obvious that the sheep were not among the followers, while the goats were.If you like I'll be glad to lead you through the passages.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Yes ,but the part where it says "release the front wheel nut" is probably under the section "Removing the front wheel", while the "tighten the front wheel nut" is under the "Adding new front wheel" section. This is what context is all about.Both Paul and Jesus, however, are under the same "How to be saved" section. And they say different things about it. the context you're referring to is the assumption that they're all right, the bible cannot be wrong. Within that context you can invent justifications for anything against anything else. If that's your context for overviewing the mechanism of salvation, you may as well save yourself some time and hassle and continue believing what you believe in without questioning it.

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

"Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God that works within you."Who is doing the "work" here? Us or God?I've always wondered about this passage.

Okay. I misread you. Some believe (Roman Catholicism) of salvation involving works (trying). Your stance is salvation as default and salvation can be lost by not trying. Not "salvation by trying" but "damnation by not trying". That is different.For that to operate there should be biblical evidence of two things:a) All are saved by default (not "salvation open to all" - which is potential not a given)b) This default salvation can be lost by behavior (which is different than Jesus for example, setting the attaining of all the standard as being the criteria)Matthem 25 says the sheep go to the right and those on the right go to heaven. Pretty clear here but also ties in with the sheep theme throughout the bible: passover lamb, lamb of God, sacrificial lamb, "my sheep hear my voice" (Jesus), spotless lamb, good shepherd etc.By all means show how you figure the goats are the followers

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

This is one of those verses which underscores a vital point when it comes to reading scripture, to whit "Don't take a verse in isolation and form a doctrine on it - examine it with a view to the whole"Some things which are clearly laid out in the Gospel:- man is spirit and flesh (body,mind). From birth his body is alive but his spirit is 'dead'. The ultimate meaning of death in the bible always means separateness from God. Adam and Eve 'died' spiritually and were what?.... Ejected from the Garden = sepatateness from God. Jesus 'dying' on the cross was him being....separated from God.- a dead spirit, unsurprisingly, cannot understand the truths of God because "these are foolishness to him because they are spiritually discerned". Dead spirits don't discern- God is the one who has to breath life into the dead spirit. Thus 'born again' or 'born from above' or 'born of the spirit' etc. God saves a person.- when this happens, a number of things occur at the same time: the person is saved, they are at peace with God(as opposed to being at war - even if THEY didn't view it that way), they become children of God. In relation to this verse, Gods Spirit comes reside in the person. Why?- It is the persons spirit which has this new life - not his flesh. Sin resides in the flesh and wars - literally - with this new life inside. There is thus a tension within. The persons spirit now understands the things of God and wants the things of God but the flesh wants what it always wants the things of Sin and Death. The Holy Spirits role is to come alongside the persons spirit and struggle against this opposing force. And it is a struggle - ask any Christian. This ongoing process is called Sanctification - where the person is 'conformed to the likeness of Jesus'. They literally become more and more like Jesus. More able to resist temptation, to love, to have compassion (which would cause them to reach out to others with the same news they received - which might explain why God did it this way). It's a lifelong process until finally the flesh dies at whatever age it does.- There are exhortations all over the New Testament along the lines of "realise what you are - a son of God- act like one, struggle against sin, resist Satan and he will flee, you are a temple of the holy spirit (ie: he resides in you) it is inconsistant to act as if you were like you were before" etc, etc.Your verse is another of many such exhortations."Work out your salvation..." Many take "Work out" to mean "Figure out". What Paul is saying is to "work" it out, "extract" it out, "squeeze" it out, "push" it out...what? Your salvation. You are saved, now let the knowledge of that fact be worked out of you in a practical sensse. Let it bear fruit. Let it be seen by God and by others that this has happened. Let your overwhelming thankfulness be evidenced in ways that make a difference, that bring glory to the God who did this incredible thing for you. Don't become a "Christian on Vacation" who locks their salvation up in a drawer and carries on as if nothings happened. Become what the bible describes you as - a Christian in enemy (Satan) occupied territory. An alien. A Christian at war. Get to work....Work it: out..."With fear and trembling" The Christian fears God but it is not a craven fear, a fear that causes him to shrink back. It is a Godly fear. Awe and a feeling of minisculness when exposed to how big he is. Trembling is not always bad either. Who hasn't trembled with pleasure in their lives?"for it is God that works within you"God works in us, through us and with us. Hopefully you will see that this work doesn't refer to salvation (although he does the work there too) it refers to sanctifying work God commences once a person is saved"he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion until the day of Jesus Christ" Santification is a process that begins day 1 (after new life) and continues until it is finished. Until the person is made fit for heaven. "for nothing unclean shall enter heaven"That help Robin?This message has been edited by iano, 05-Oct-2005 10:27 AM

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

How do you figure. Can you give something where Jesus says "this is how you are saved" which conflicts with Pauls "this is how you are saved"? Especially in relation to the assertion that it is by works or by trying Whether it is true of not has nothing to do with this. We're just looking at whether it contradicts itself internally or not. You could come to the conclusion that it doesn't after some discussion. That doesn't make it true. It could be that this 'fable' is just a well put together fable. The claim is that it contradicts ITSELFNo assumption of truth is required to do that. No inventions either. Either scripture backs up scripture and the whole is consistant - or it isn't.This message has been edited by iano, 05-Oct-2005 11:03 AM

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

I thought I already had but here goes again. I also never asserted that it's works vs. trying; I asserted that it's works vs faith.Jesus's teaches that :- The only criteria for sending individuals to heaven or hell is whether the person gave food, drink or clothing to the destitute, and welcomed strangers and visited the sick and people in prison. (Matthew 25:31-46).- All you have to do to get saved is obey the commandments (Luke 10:25-27, Matthew 19:16-17, Luke 18:18-22 )- The Son of Man will reward each of us according to our works (Matthew 16:27)- A man who loves God and their neighbour is close to salvation (Mark 12:32-34)- Because of his kindness and generosity, Zacchaeus has been saved (Luke 19:8-9)Which of the above isn't clear to you ? You said it!

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

What is there about this passage that indicates works = salvation that differentiates it from works being a consequence of being saved. Note the reaction of people who had believed in Acts 4:31-32. Filled with the holy spirit > believed > generosity followed. When God moves in people change.How to be saved in Luke 10:27: "love God with all your heart, soul, mind" and "love your neighbour as yourself". Absolutely correct. Two key words "all" and "as". Now, hands up anyone who can say they've done this. Assuming there are none so foolish, then we are back to "Try to love God/Neighbour..." which Jesus didn't say. He tells us what is required for salvation - he didn't say it was possible to do it by ourselves. Jesus is talking about his second coming here - not salvation. And he is. But close to salvation is not saved. What's the thing that seals the deal as it were. More love just means closer. Closer and closer... Read the passage and note the Acts-like sequence mentioned above: I don't know what version of the bible you have but no matter.Verse 3: "sought to see Jesus" ("seek and you shall find", "knock and the door will be opened to you").Verse 4: "ran" and "climbed" to "see Jesus". More seeking, urgency - recognition of his need for Jesus.Verse 5: "Jesus... saw him" presumably, as always amongst the throng. Jesus is seeking to save the lost (see verse 10) "Jesus says "today I must abide at your house" (Jesus Rev 3:20: "Behold I stand at the door and knock - if any man hears my voice and opens the door (choice is ours) I will come in and dine with him and he with me). Zach is opening the door. Zach is responding to the knock.Verse 6: "received him joyfully" (John 1:12 "some however did receive Him and believed in Him; so he gave them the right to be called children of God."). Zach is converted at this point. Watch the Acts like result...but first a topical verse...Verse 7: The only comment a works-adherent can make. ("Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone")Verse 8: A transformed Zach. What made him say this. What caused him to climb the tree, run, seek, obey Jesus instructions to come down. What caused such overflowing generosity. An exposure to Jesus that others, by mere sight, weren't gettingVerse 9: Salvation had come indeed - but Jesus gives no indication in his words that it was Zachs action that did it. On the contrary...Verse 10: "For the Son of Man is come to seek and save the lost" Jesus is the one who does the saving - not man or his actionsVerse in isolation can be made mean anything. This is one of a multitude of expositions that can be made of any salvation passage The complete mechanism must be shown: seeking, realisation of need, God responding, receiving Jesus/believing in Jesus/becoming a child of God, becoming 'like' Jesus.Receive/believe/become. That's the sequence.This message has been edited by iano, 05-Oct-2005 02:43 PMThis message has been edited by iano, 05-Oct-2005 02:48 PM

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

No. That's actually not what we believe.We believe that "works" are a manifestation -- or potential evidence -- of God's grace being active in a person. In other words, the prompting of the Holy Spirit is the motion that moves a person to do good works in the first place (cf, Catholicism v. Arianism).It should also be noted that very few Christian groups that I know of will ever deny that the Holy Spirit is the agent by which God's grace is transmitted. What seems to be the subject of heated debate is what authentically constitutes a valid manifestation of the Holy Spirit at work in the lives of each individual.According to my Catholic faith no one does anything good in God's sight except by the power of the Holy Spirit -- and that includes Christ himself (since everything he did, including his own incarnation, was by the power or motion of the Holy Spirit).Please note that I think there are a few fellow Catholics that do not explain this very well at times. However, I think it could be fairly stated that there is a coupling occuring within the interaction of grace and works -- and it can be very difficult to discern which comes first from our own limited human perspective.Having said that, it is nonetheless believed by Catholics that no good work is accomplished outside the prompting of the Holy Spirit -- and the Holy Spirit is believed to be the initial spark that sets the work into live action.Edit: corrected grammar, added notes to clarify position.This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 10-05-2005 10:20 AM