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Author Topic:   All species are transitional
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5061 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 7 of 246 (248943)
10-04-2005 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by JustinC
10-04-2005 1:17 PM


nice!
In fact I DO NOT CONSIDER this a "trivial point". There is so much biology lost by not being able to relate deaths to genetic biophysics conceptually. Creationists have very much to contribute by having thought about death a lot more than evolutionists. A dying gene combination might influence a living phenotype by the average deaths in the dying genome of a larger clade in the phenotype providided under the same dominance/recessive traitsystem) if the symmetry works out account allele wise. This is the essence of various ways to imagine that biology trumps any meme both behaviorally and ecologically no matter the genes heirarchically.
It is not trivial by my thinking.I have not reified the thought to the Cambrian level but it might be possible.
This message has been edited by Brad McFall, 10-04-2005 07:21 PM

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Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by robinrohan, posted 10-04-2005 8:00 PM Brad McFall has replied
 Message 13 by Parasomnium, posted 10-05-2005 5:56 AM Brad McFall has replied

  
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5061 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 11 of 246 (248983)
10-04-2005 9:42 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by robinrohan
10-04-2005 8:00 PM


Re: Odd (and clear) comment from Brad McFall
It is too hard and long to render it without that oddity. It might be that baramins are wrong and hierarchicalization will not be pursued by creationist in a 100yrs just as radioactive dating changed the way creationists worked on rock time but currently I dont see much evo space contrarily or not for species like dying individuals or populations DEFINED by the population GENETICALLY as would be required to work that out ecologically. The issue of death would conceptuall bear on if the double phenotypic construct I implicated be retained or if some other restruction of the division of geneotype and phenotype be proposed either by advances in baramin logic where evos rear the fear to tred the trodding or even heaven forbit (gosh did I say that) Wolfram Science prevails where i think not even the current foregaurd of evolutionary thought will survive. We do not even have the shampoo to wash this greasy fleshy stuffed out so how could I know. I do know however that the thought evolutionarily of death influencing life is clearer than mixed mud. Mayr simply tried to define that out of biology. I think others perhaps should have tried to define Wright's gene combination in group theoretical terms quantum mechanically. Maybe Ned would tell me this is impossible but I doubt not.

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Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5061 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 15 of 246 (249025)
10-05-2005 7:17 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Parasomnium
10-05-2005 5:56 AM


Re: Brad, Evolution & Death
To be useable the death part would need a definition that refers to a population. This would not be a class necessarily. It would enable one to speak about the species as an individual much as Newton spoke of fermentation and death in creatures being like a dying "central" Earth or earths.
Now one can conceive of species as entities (statistical in the best Mendelian sense if one wished) without borders and yet a major part of a hierarchical process or one without that unknown and possible unknowable borders. I think taxonomy needs to be flexible but it is probably one of the least flexible disciplines within biology. Julian Humphries simply failed to notice that any statistic could be invalidated by a proper normalization. There is resistance to viewing these things as definable. If there is any sense to the Baramin notion then the baramin divisions are so cognized. Creating a possibly different notion in the same thought requires committment to particular connectivities of levels of organization IRRESPECTIVE to levels of selection and think it is for that reason and not the c/e issue that causes intransigence.
I was thinking more of my comments on Carnap. Use the EVC Search function if you like or try
EvC Forum: Religion: a survival mechanism?
I know I have not exhausted that analysis but presently I am working on comparing Kant's four figure subtility to DKNF TO any normalization via non economically constrained views of potential biological research. It depends on there being (some failure to observe) a simple juxtaposition of four creatures which does not mean any rate of change is thinkable IF normalized by some kind of population (supramolecular and dead) but this is also meaning to mean that organacism is dead memetically. I know this is not the common view. I do know that there is no way that Cornell Vision is identical to A D Whites' as the president last week said here in no uncertain tones that it was. It is not. Simple as that no matter the Godlessness.
It would be questionable to me to simply say evolution is DIRECTED non-random death whether by a designer, an alien or jiggling molecules. You would be tokenizing the relation of genetic isolation by distance and any geographic measure of species diversity and that is only doable should both Darwin and Mendel be seamlessly related in the details. Inventories rather than wealth or income is a better analogy. Deathful demes are unusable inventories, they might be genetical reverse artifically selected. Ecosystem engineering might "train" migrating demes to alter the token distance that the earth rotates or was called endemic. The issue is how is the accounting done. I use water balance. Thus it is important to look for water on Mars but it might be expermented on on the Moon instead while not politically possible still on Earth. I think one can analyze the two sides of ledger back to Mendel further than Carnap. That is all. I hope that clears up the question of my mortality.
Mammy said
quote:
But in addition, each indivdual carries mutations not present in either parent and thus, the genome contains novel variation both in content and in recombined inherited variation.
I only tried to scale this attribute IN creatures onto the largest scales thought about. I could be wrong where Mammy is correct.
This message has been edited by Brad McFall, 10-05-2005 07:38 AM

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Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5061 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 27 of 246 (249393)
10-06-2005 7:21 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by JustinC
10-05-2005 9:56 PM


let's ask the experts...
I have thought that I can find that the decrease in the use of the word "transitional" occurs with how much influence Simpson's "Classification of the Mammals" has on one's thought about monophyly. There is a dispute about how much Hennig might have taken without citation from Criozat. I have never tried to verify if that suspicion of mine is correct. Croizat derides Simpson's use taxonomy and draws teats out of the shape of Australia or therebouts, but that is not a likely response to this text. Mayr however insists that Rosa's Hologenesis is extinct in biology. It was not in the early 80s (I mean, I was not an effectively dead biologist then) nor in certain smaller publications to date. Therefore I tend to listen to creationists than figureing out how to cut up every Simopsonian univocal into a diversity of decontructive approaches to forms.
Ref-
Scroll down to "classification"
This message has been edited by Brad McFall, 10-06-2005 07:24 AM

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Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5061 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 45 of 246 (249612)
10-06-2005 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Parasomnium
10-06-2005 5:29 PM


Re: Let's move on.
Psst, P;
Are evc regarding your headed threaders supposed to "agree" gradually on this
?
amazons'source
How do you think it is gradually possible to think around a creationist that might happen to disagree with Hamilton but agrees H saw through G's "all men are created equal and seperate magesterially"?
This message has been edited by Brad McFall, 10-06-2005 07:16 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Parasomnium, posted 10-06-2005 5:29 PM Parasomnium has not replied

  
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5061 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 52 of 246 (250572)
10-10-2005 9:03 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Parasomnium
10-10-2005 10:58 AM


Re: locally you will not find a transition to another species
I'm heading for Robin's post rather than yours here of specifically
physical differences no matter the amount of information fed into the gene pool. Perhaps I just misunderstand your notion of "transition" or how we define "species" but I nearly have my whole poisiton worked out below. Polishing to follow.
warning=scroll down at your own risk. if for some reason you all only want the finished, and not the preview ok, cut it out.
Is there any resemblance between creationism and evolutionism? Everyone has heard of the joke of someone being a monkey’s uncle. Is there any truth to that quip or is it simply light made of our nation’s founding fathers’ desire to escape religious persecution? Does one side of the issue posses only a distinct concept while the other a complete one? Is similarity here of any consequence or is it but an unapproachable standard marred with prejudice, corrupting rather than progressing each others’ proper domains? In the realm of pedagogy evolutionists do not have the pedants right of thoroughness because their own teaching is subject to human law but conversely creationists must permit philosophical theologians aesthetic access to any reasonable force of law whether natural or juridical such that error possibly interpolated from either position in the contribution of death to life sides with neither but elevates the ratiocinium hybridum of logic to the instructress of the missing organon popularization has provided as either a distinct torchbearer or a complete trainbearer and thus the first figure of the common contrast is without suspicion despite the usual suspects.
Although there are many sources of creationism in America, ICR stands out beyond most. It ”s “The Modern Creation Trilogy” by father and son team , Henry M. and John D. Morris contains a fairly broad overview of creation science and its attendants(reword). One of its founders is Henry Morris who with ?? Whitcomb published “The Genesis Flood” is widely touted as creating a revival in creationism in the USA since the 60s. The Institute of Creation Research is the only accredited institution offering advanced scientific creationism(word?) degrees. Larson’s recent review of the history of evolution as a scientific theory contextually reflects this otherwise creationistic interpretation of resent changes in creationism by ending his chapter titled “America’s Anti-Evolution Crusade”
. after the Tennessee Supreme Court reversed Scope’s conviction on a technicality in 1927, and when no state or locality brought any other prosecutions under their anti-evolution laws, courts did not have another opportunity to review the meaning and validity of those restrictions until the 1960s. By then, the scientific and religious landscape in America had changed in two key respects. On the one hand, opinion among biologists on how evolution operated coalesced around the starkly Darwinian modern synthesis. On the other hand, conservative Christians hardened in its fidelity to the biblical account of creation. These developments took decades to unfold however. For the time being, America’s anti-evolution crusade had run its course.
The NCSE is not an overtly named “anti-creationism” organization but for all intents and purposes it is. It is helping represent the currently on-going plaintiffs before the federal bench in in Harrisburg PA over the teaching of intelligent desing in Dover Schools. It ”s director(?) Eugnie C.Scott has recently put out an introduction to the controversy under the title “Evolution vs. Creation”. Before the publication of this title books tended to be one sided only. This book makes an attempt to be fair but decidedly falls into the evolutionist’s ”camp.’ Hierarchicalization of the formal differences represented in these two books does not remand sufficient knowledge as to what higher classifications dominate over prior ones less structured. Creation biology will have to fill the shoe worn by the biophysict of the shifting balance no matter whether life originated on Earth or off it. No one can know if the trainbearer wears these shoes or instead uses them as fodder for the torch the train carries as neither second guessing God nor spending what one does not have is possible, regardless, the footprints do make an impression.
C)Qualifies ideas stated by the other author:
Creos-qualify evolution to Babylon of Genesis not Nebecannzer
Evos-qualify ID as to being only from prior issues , not new
In the third volume of “The Modern Creation Trilogy” chapter two essentially qualifies the notion of evolution oft associated with the atheistic possibility of Charles Darwin, all the way back through Greek history and beyond, “We have thus shown that the evolutionary philosophy is not modern at all, but rather traces back through all the history of mankind, right back to Babylon, - not the Babylon of Nebuchadnezzar (though it was prominent there), but to the original Babel founded by Nimrod(Genesis 10: 8-10). Evolutionists might resist this linkage to pantheistic polytheism philosophically but for their part as revealed by Niles Eldredge in Foreward to Scott’s book the creationist’s new conceptual wrinkle called “intelligent design” is relegated to a footnote of old ideas. Niles said, “What do creationists have to refute the very idea of evolution? They trot out a mishmash of objections to specific scientific claims; to the extent that they are testable, creationists’ ideas have long been refuted. More recently, they have reverted to notions of “irreducible complexity” and “intelligent design” - ideas presented as new but actually part of the creationist war chest before Darwin ever published the Origin. The fact that organisms frequently display intricate anatomies and behaviors to perform certain functions - such as flying - has inspired the claim that there must be some Intellignet Designer behind it all, that a natural process like natural selection would be inadequate to construct such exquisite complexity.”pagexii
Eldredge makes his qualification clear by making his cognition of design complete. He distinctly said, “We can, however, ask whether patterns of history in systems that we know are intelligently designed - like cars, computers, or musical instruments - resemble those of biological history. I have actually done some work along these lines - and the answer, predictably and unsurprisingly, is that the evolutionary trees of my trilobites (the fossils I study) do not resemble the trees generated by the same program for my favorite man-made objects - the musical instruments known as cornets. The reason in a nutshell is obvious: the information in biological systems is transferred almost entirely “vertically” from parent to offspring via the DNA in sperm and egg; in man-made systems, like cornets, the information is spread as much “horizontally” (as when people copy other people’s ideas) as it is vertically from old master to pupil . I think the hypothesis of intelligent design, in this sense, is indeed falsifiable - and I think we have falsified it already.”pxii
Although creationists who have qualified evolution do not expose a positive attribute by which we could/can understand a thing, they have sent the message negatively to keep humanity from erring by showing the form any evolutionarily attributable trait may be expressed in. In relating philosophical and biblical theology the third volume entitled SOCIETY & CREATION said, “The complicated battles of the gods and goddesses seem to portray the struggling forces of nature, as they labor to bring forth an orderly world. Or perhaps, they may rather represent actual warfare in the heavens, such as the Bible describes, between Satan and his angels and Michael and his angels. Or possibly both.
Identify points where one source author:
A)Agrees or disagrees with the other author:
Creos-neither creation nor evolution can be proven (there were no witness at the poof origin) 2ND BOOK OF THE TRILOGY??Larson page 258 In effect the case for teaching creation science . yet one of the two accounts must . for life’s diversity.”
Evos-religion underlies creationismScott said, “The topic of religion constitutes chapter 3, and creationism is a religious concept. Religion will be defined as a set of idea concerning a nonmaterial reality; thus it would appear that - given science’s concern for material explanations -science and creationism would have little in common. Yet the controversy that his book considers, the creationism/evolution controversy, includes the claim made by some that creationism is scientific, or can be made scientific, or has scientific elements. The question naturally arises, then, “Is creationism testable?” and Eldredge said, “If it is the case that the majority of practitioners of the mainstream Judaeo-Christian religions have had little problem concluding that it is the job of science to explain the material contents of the universe and how it works, and the task of religion to explore the spiritual and moral side of human existence, it nonetheless remains as true today as it was in the nineteenth century that a literal reading of Genesis (with its two and half non-identical accounts of the origin of the earth, life and human beings) does not readily match up with the scientific account. There was a conflict then, and there remains a conflict today, between the scientific account of the history of earth and the evolution of life, on the one hand , and received interpretations of the same in some of the more hard-core Judaeo-Christian sects. Darwin remains unmetabolized - the very reason that his name is still so readily invoked so long after he died in 1882.
Thus it is not an intellectual issue- try as creationists will to make it seem so. Science - as many of the writings in this book makes clear - cannot deal with the supernatural. Its rules of evidence require any statement about the nature of the world to be testable - to be subjected to further testing by asking the following: If this statement is true about the world, what would I expect to observe? If the predictions are borne out by experimentation or further observation, the idea is confirmed or corroborated - but never in the final analysis actually “proven”. If on the other hand, our predictions are not realized, we must conclude that our statement is in fact wrong: we have falsified it.”pxxi
Larson put it, p262 “By 2000, books by Johnson condemning naturalism in all its forms had become best sellers within the conservative Christian community and he had attracted a core following within academia. Biochemist Michael J. Behe and philosopher William A. Dembski stood near the core’s center. Unlike Johnson, Behe did not deny the evolutionary concept of common descent, but he did assert that some biochemical processes (such as the cascade of multiple proteins required for blood clotting) are too irreducibly complex to have originated in the step-by-step fashion envisioned by the modern synthesis.^41 Recalling, in its way, the nineteenth-century claim that the eye could not have evolved piecemeal because it only functions as a whole, Behe maintained that an intelligence must have designed certain functional systems basic to life. This is an old argument, but Behe revived it with modern examples . Seeking to break the stalemate in God’s favor, Dembski invoked probability filters . to suggest that life’s complexity is more likely the product of design than chance . These perceived social effects of the scientific theory ensured that the popular controversy over creation and evolution would continue. Indeed, late-twentieth-century developments in evolutionary biology made them loom larger than they had since the heyday of Social Darwinism.
(----Two propositions in space, one in time and one in population---)
A modern apprehension of this dilitantistic change in the popular culture of e/c was given in the Scott text on Fig 3.1
“Figure 3.1 presents a continuum of religious views with creationism at one end and evolution at the other. The most extreme views are, of course, at the ends of the continuum. The creation/evolution continuum reflects the degree to which the Bible is interpreted to be literally true; with the greatest degree of literalism at the top Although it is a continuum of religious and philosophical beliefs, it inversely reflects how much modern science is accepted by holders of these different views
This figure however shows in perspective----Two propositions in space, one in time and one in population--- whether one agrees with the qualification that ID is old (evo side)or that atomic evolution is nothing new(creo side). The two in space are the earth or the geological layer, the one in time and population depends on how the “atoms” (undividable matter with impenetrability) build up the predicates of the various study groups by physics type definitions of the poulations that can reproduce in them self similarly.
This is a comprehension of
RATIONAL AND EMPRICAL vs TELEOLGICAL divided by earth based guesses. Intelligent design is not just old ideas unless the IQ =Size. There is no evidence that the space the causal graph of the brain takes up = the ordinal number that any evolution of the brain in the past or eternal future MIGHT adapt/make Thus insofar as this is nOT possible ID is not necessarily only an old idea. The id event probablism must be more than defined by filters however. It must be positively reclaimed from the psychology of economic prescriptions.
B)Says something relevant about the topic that the other author has neglected to
Kant”With respect to the sciences, there are two ways in which the prevailing taste may be corrupted, pedantry and dilettantism[Galanterie]. The one pursues the sciences for the school, and thereby limits them in respect of their use; the other pursues them merely for the sake of social intercourse, and thereby limits them with respect to their content . A fitting accuracy in matters of form is throughness (scholastic perfection). Pedantry, then, is an affectation of thoroughness, just as dilettantism, being a mere suitor for the applause of fashion, is nothing but an affectation of popularity; for it only seeks to recommend itself to the reader, and therefore not to offend him even by a single hard word.”p37
say:
Evos- difference of horizontal and vertical speciation can both be continued Continualy I n evotutin
Lucretious- Trilogy p 44 “Two levels of evolutionary beliefs need to be recognized. At the intellectual level, Greek atomistic philosophies , such as those worked out by Democritus and Leucippus, were highly developed and were accepted my many scholars. The pagan mystery religions were understood and practiced by many initiates on a considerably higher plan of sophistication than the popular idol worship of the masses. The Stoic and Epicurean philosophers, the best known of whom is probably Lucretius, were essentially either atheists or evolutionary pantheists. None of the pagan religions or philosophies held any real belief in a personal, omnipotent, eternal Creator, who created all things ex nihlio by His omnipotent Word.”
Dawkins”Gould fears that many evolutionists lose sight of development, and this leads them into error. There is firstly the error of genetic atomism, the fallacious belief in a one-to-one mapping between singles genes and bits of body. Embryonic development doesn’t work like that. The genome is not a ”blueprint’. Gould regards me as an arch genetic atomist, wrongly, as I have explained at length elsewhere.^117 It is one of those cases where you will misunderstand an author unless you interpret his words in the context of the position he was arguing against. Consider the following from Gould himself:
“Evolution is mosaic in character, proceeding at different rates in different structures. An animal’s parts are largely dissociable, thus permitting historical change to occur.”
This appears to be rampant, and very un-Gouldian, atomism! Until you realize what Gould was arguing against: Cuvier’s belief that evolution is impossible because the change in any part is useless unless immediately accompanied by change in all other parts. (a doctrine recently revived as ”irreducible complexity’ under the mistaken impression that it is new.) p 201Devils Chaplin
We must get beyond persuasion to conviction for as Kant said, “Of many cognitions we are conscious only in such a manner as not to be able to judge whether the grounds of assent are objective or subjective.”p63
This is more a problem for the creationist but plaques the evolutionist in the extent to which atomism is in the community of thought.
Creos- there is no continuum here but instead an even larger bifurcation than evos expect
Namely baramins
Use of HYBIRDS to define coded info baramins
binding perversions and voltaic piles through sets of 1-d logics shifted among group fitness measures macrothermodyanmicaly (NO NEED for species selection a prirori)
Gishlick figure IMPLIES FOUR DIFFERENT PROPOSITIONS (two for earth, one for any designed time and one for decomposition into “populations” of at least intelligent designer s of each category when if not wholly naturalistic methodologically composed (Scott page 57 ).
D)Extends a proposition made by the other author
Creos- that macro evolution can not be extrapolated from the given evos microevolution(species selection issue of neotological scaling in the prior uniformatiaristic premised past)
Getting thE FACT straight - Russell on limits and Math vs Instructed no teleonomic biology
RNA origin of life vs non-language role for relation of DNA-Protein- suggestions that thermal current, voltaic contact, quantum photon effects and thermodynamics rule motion (repulsion) back to origin not nonlinear science and nonequilibrium approaches to form (patterns) Biology afraid of its deterministic past and creationist not using continuum science in its own claim that goes from creation science to scientific creationism to the the dispute over whether an id event occurred without Wolfram’s science or Dawkins’ gene pool Maxwell demonized by changes in information technology analogies and DnA computers possibly even curing some diseases (regimen vs placebo)
Dawkins said, “The statistical nature of the argument points up an irony in the claim , frequently made by lay opponents of evolution, that the theory of evolution violates the Second Law of Thermodynamics, the law of increasing entropy or chaos(chaos here has its original and still colloquial meaning, not the technical meaning which it has recently acquired) within any closed system. The truth is opposite. If anything appeared to violate the law(nothing really does), tit would be the facts(About life’s functional complexity or high ”information content’),not any particular explanation of those facts!p84DevilChap
Evos- design are not of horizontal transfers but is only culturally related such that
Design are not horizontal transfer
Is only cultural
Larson-
And not barminologically reflected in the
Gene and gene dissections? Where is the real baramin science??
Kant said “Now when a ratiocination takes place by means of three propositions only; according to the rules which have just been stated for all ratiocination, I call this a pure ratiocination (ratiocinium purum); if however, it is only possible by a combination of more than three judgments it is a mixed ratiocination (ratiocinium hybridum) . Suppose, namely, that between the trhee main propositions there must be interposed an immediate inference from one of them, so that there is a proposition more than a pure ratiocination admits, then we have a ratiocinium hybridum. For example, suppose one should argue thus:
Nothing that is corruptible is simple;
Hence, nothing is simple is corruptible;
The soul of man is simple,
Therefore the soul of man is not corruptible,
Lowercasewe would not, indeed, be employing a compound ratiocination properly so-called, since this would consist of several ratiocinations; whereas this contains, in addition to what is required in a single ratiocination, one more immediate inference by contraposition, thus containing four propositions.
Even if, however, only three judgments are expressed, yet if the sequence of the conclusion from these judgments be possible only by the help of a legitimate conversion, contraposition, or some other logical alteration of one of these judgments, the ratiocination would still be a ratio hybridum; for the question is not what is said, but what it is indispensably necessary to think, in order that there may be a valid sequence.p82-3
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3)Subsume similarities and differences between the sources under subordinate categories
Categories of time ONLY as ordertypes no matter how the organon is philosophically motivated.
Kant-“As there are so many and varied branches of knowledge, it is well to make a plan for ourselves according to which we may arrange the sciences in the manner best adapted for our purposes. All departments of knowledge stand in a certain natural relation to one another. Now if in endeavouring to enlarge our knowledge we neglect this natural connexion, all our manifold knowledge will result in nothing but mere rhapsody. But if we make some ones science our end, and consider all other parts of knowledge only as means to it, then we impart to our knowledge a systematic character. And in order to be able to proceed in the enlargement of our knowledge on such a well-ordered and appropriate plan, we must try to discover that mutual connexion of different branches of knowledge. In this we are guided by the Architectonic of the sciences, which is a system in which the sciences are considered with respect o their relationship and systematic combination into a whole comprising the knowledge interesting humanity.” P39
Larson on Wright p228-231 ending Fisher objected to Wright’s reliance on nonadaptive mechanisms in evolution. Wright countered that Fisher “overlooks the role of inbreeding as a factor leading to nonadaptive differentiation of local strains, through selection of which, adaptive evolution of the species as a whole may be brought about more effectively than through mass selection of individuals.”^10 They agreed that mass selection pushes large population toward adaptive peaks, but Wright believed the process would stagnate under static conditions. Fisher shot back, “Static conditions in the evolutionary sense certainly do not occur, for . the evolutionary progress of associated organisms ensures that the organic environment shall be continentally changing.”^11 It came down to opposing examples of inbred shorthorn cattle versus environmentally adapted peppered moths. The ongoing dispute helped to supply population genetics with the rich diversity of mathematical models and mechanical metaphors needed to finally displace Lamarkian and other vitalist concepts from biology.”p231 Kant- . As Klaus Reich point out, however, Kant’s ironic closing remarks suggest another area in which philosophy and medicine could come into conflict, although here the philosophical viewpoint is to be distinguished no only from the “empirical” viewpoint in medicine, but also from the “rational” teaching on “the art of prolonging human life.” As Kant notes in one of his reflections:
The conformity to law of an organic being by which it maintains itself in the same form while continuously sloughingoff and restoring its parts is health. As far as the whole organic nature as such is concerned, this conformity to law of an organic being and alteration of the vital force imply that the creature, after it has produced offspring like itself, mingles as an individual with unorganized matter and only the species endures. Growing old and death. This is not a disease, but consummation of the vital force. (Reflection # 1538, XV2, 964-65) in Conflict of the Falculties pxxiii
The theme of discontinuity and continuity of heritable information may be resolved as to law and thus answering Reich in the difference between Fisher and Wright should the Provine “incomprehensible””does not even being to work” was simply before the apprehension called for with Macrothermodyanmics that it be “Darwin/Lamarkized” being that the dimensionality explicit in Wright but not Fisher is simply that gene frequency displays are related to macrokinetic substance stability effects and gene combination axes are multiple chromatographic columns instantiations.
Discontinutiy by analogy computer programs object oriented in parallel environments not to simple differences of levels of organization vs levels of selection bookkeeping
Does the ratiocinium hybridum apply to latent recessivity (as per Larson above and his example from Lewontin 60s “At the most elementary level, the discovery that all species(even the most primitive unicellular ones) shared a common genetic code suggested that they have a common ancestry. In turn, the comparative study of DNA from various organisms elucidated their evolutionary relationships. In one spectacular example of this from the 1960s, Dobzhansky’s protégé Richard C. Lewontin used a technique called “gel electrophoresis” to measure genetic variation among individuals of the same species. This analysis tested his mentor’s hypothesis that enough latent variability exists in recessive alleles to feed the evolutionary process in response to changed environmental conditions without added mutations. Lewontin found what he was looking for - indeed, he found so much genetic variability within species that much of it must have little or no effect on individuals.^6 Taking the position that all the variation may be meaningless, diehard opponents of Dobshansky’s hypothesis clung to the classical view (historically associated with Thomas Hunt Morgan and Hermann Muller) that mutations feed evolution.”p269-70) or is it simply a linguistic indication of an algebracism of some geometrically refined split of the relation of tangent form morphometrically and metric philosophy of math? That depends on if Lyell was correct with Gray against Agassiz in complaint to Hooker to diss Agassiz’s statics dynamically considered and instead he retrofit the “ice age” back to . and the coining of the term “missing link”.
Browne “In return, Darwin admired Lyell’s courage - he recognized that what had been relatively easy for him to accept wa wrech for the older man. “Considering his age, his former views, and position in society, I think his conduct has been heroic on this subject.”^49..Lyell’s title was blunt: The Geological Evidences of the Antiquity of Man with Remarks on Theories of the Origin of Species by Variation . In this book Lyell pulled back the curtain on civilization to reveal the world of human geological history. Until then, the paucity of human fossil remains had suggested that mankind was fairly recent in geological terms, a view that accorded well with the idea that humanity appeared only when the earth reached its modern state after the glacial period, or - for those who believed in the biblical flood - at the point when the waters receded. Lyell pushed the origin of human beings much farther back than this watery dividing line, into the geological deep past. His writing, as always, was vivid..his use of the expression “missing links” in the fossil record lodged permanently in the public mind.^50p218Browne
Regardless there is still some shifting balance whether or not it is data to look for a transitional or not. Thus the baramin is a wider use of the sign of language lexically from which to reflect.
Are the missing links merely abstract object programs that remove a link from a linkedlist as Lyell retrofitted the flood beyond the ice age or rather is the failure to find the interpolated coordinate not data itself but substance of the relation of algebra to geometry to population WEIGHT vs Size in the form of such that illegalities as to matter have been substituted for newly thought data where only legalities of the form were in consequential a verdict of the first form not recognized by Lyell because of Gray’s resentment of Aggaissz and American Southern attraction to the false comparison of Aggaisz’s species to Native Negro rights (Gould on native plant rights in t I have landed) - the term “transitional” just clouds the globe of any continental continuation that Aggaisz rejected until one could think god’s thoughts AFTER HIM as fecundity AFTER its kind.
Of course as soon as determinant information is retained and thus gained then one can choose further. Dawkins however insists on thinking any grammar of lexicology as if it was already possibly known but he makes the instance that the information is developed massively by a virus that used frame shifting like the computer program “stuffit”.. Thus he says “If natural selection feeds information into gene pools, what is the information about?”p103 The Develis chaplin. Dawkins made the valid point that Williams“Can we measure the information capacity of that portion of the genome which is actually used? We can at least estimate it. In the case of the human genome it is about 2 per cent - considerably less than the proportion of my hard disk that I have used since I bought it. Presumably the equivalent figure for the crested newt is even smaller, but I don’t know if it is has been measured. In any case, we mustn’t run away with a chauvinistic idea that the human genome somehow ought to have the largest DNA database because we are so wonderful. The great evolutionary biologist George C. Williams has pointed out that animals with complicated life cycles need to code for the development of all stages in the life cycle, but they only have one genome with which to do so. A butterfly’s genome has to hold the complete information needed for building a catepiller as well as a butterfly.”p99 made p99 that “animals with complicated life cycles need to code for development of all stages in the life cycle, but only have one genome with which to do so.” The baramin concept might instead deny this lack of irreducible complexity of computational complexity and isteand remand the largest possible separation already on the largest causal level the population classes.Dawkins even admitted, “Once again, creationists might spend some earnest time speculating why the Creator should bother to litter genomes with untranslated pseudogenes and junk tandem repeat DNA. P99 Regardless, Gladyshev’s macrothermodyanmics (showing how there is not this correct use of information in the biophysics itself) provides a continua from which any former pluviocity might be univocalized solving Dakwins position on information and concomitant anti-creationsim and TEST the best in creation science. Pure Fisherites or Fisherists cum Hamiltonian Dakwinists might reject the test but the testimony must be accepted as it depends not on faith but ELEMENTS of scienitific deviation from the current gradual replacments being succeed by the evoultiinary sytheiss to whole life cycles or reengineered environments of ecosystem nich contructions. The only change is that rather than hold to cross level effects as determinants(Gould struxture of evolutiona) the cross level affect is one of potential by law.
This is not a fundament of analogy as Fisher did to the 2nd law or Darwin did with (Larson p87”Clinging to his Lyellian intellectural heritage,however, Darwin always saw evolution as a gradual adaptive process. “As modern geology has almost banished such views as the excavation of a great valley by a single diluvial wave,” he wrote in Origin of Species,”so will natural selection, if it be a true principle, banish the belief of the continued creation of new organic beings, or of any great and sudden modifications in their structure.”^13p87)
Creationists may not have noticed they could embrace this natural product would give them a more complete elemental fundament but the eduction is certainly not only of the cybnetic feed through kind but rather only AFTER the kind despite evolution having a clearly more distinct concept. It is simply a matter of creating the baramin definitions to be dynamic where Wright asserted contra Fisher some static situation. Given the Diferenential eqauations of Gladyshev’s phenomenological thermodynamics, which as a discipline , is not under dispute as part of science the “static” sense of Wright was made dynamic by Gladyshev. It is evolutionists not creationists who continue to assert nonexistence by dynamic control of any historical sense of a “free” will. There is good will. That is we need. We do need to show how Croizat’s method and Wright’s can be combined without necessitating particular statistical standards for causal analysis within the slowing down of evolution macrokinetics provides. Wright was showing that SIZE unlike IQ can be pathed in but out this comparision short of the economy responding to the idea requires the causal analysis to be built where current levels of selection DO NOT exist and only level of organization vary. If it so happens that Biblical Creationist motiveated baramin definitions of DNA inputted differences span the possibilities these collections of material groupings conglomerate then it will only be the fault of the evolutionist for not having thought as broadly as the creationists for a given comparable time of intellectual development once these details become common currency .
4)Create hierarchies of importance among ideas that are similar or different.
Similar- levels of what can be proved, history and relations of philosophical and methodological naturalism in kants subtility of the four figures (fish, amphibian, reptile (mammal or bird) vs materialism (any discussion of post atomic physics biochemically)
Different
Is there a consequence to the arrangement of science of is more than reflection required? Arrangement works for FOUR figures not Aggassiz’s one fishy one IN THE HORIZON the Gishlick figure replays for the Scott tex(“Figure 3.1 presents a continuum of religious views with creationism at one end and evolution at the other. The most extreme views are, of course, at the ends of the continuum. The creation/evolution continuum reflects the degree to which the Bible is interpreted to be literally true; with the greatest degree of literalism at the top Although it is a continuum of religious and philosophical beliefs, it inversely reflects how much modern science is accepted by holders of these different views”p57-8t. How is the interest of Humanity to be squared/made continuous with the law- - by force of natural law in evolution macrothermodynamically etc or educational regimen to prevent heterogenous error where homogeneity was.
5)Make judgments about the relevance of one author’s view in relation to the other’s view. Kant”Judgement is the comparison of a thing with some mark [or attribute]. The thing itself is the Subject, the mark[attribute] is the Predicate. The comparison is expressed by the word “is,” which when used alone indicates that the predicate is a mark [or attribute] of the subject, but when combined with the sign of negation states that the predicate is a mark opposed to the subject. In the former case the judgement is affirmative, in the latter negative. It is readily understood that in calling the predicate a mark [or attribute] we do not thereby say that it is a mark of the subject, for this is the case only in affirmative judgements, but that it is regarded as a mark [or attribute] of something, although in a negative judgment it contradicts the subject. Thus let “a spirit” be the thing of which I think; “compounded” an attribute of something; the judgement “ a spirit is not compounded,” represents this attribute as inconsistent with the thing.”p79
Dillitantism vs pendatry and judging history rather than changes as to dilltanism and pedantry.
2.)Validate author’s assertion with information provided by the other author
evos validate paley agasint aggassiz(The ice age vs radioactive decay)
creos validate croizat vs Gould in the coarse vs rough width of the places origins track through
Larson in trying to show the specious error of Gould, on false Markist equality{p280 } and Browne on associating Aggaisz with Southern slave desires ratially For example. Mathematics is an excellent organon , being a science which contains the principles of extension of our knowledge in respect of special use of reason. Logic, on the contrary, being the general propaedutic of every use of the understanding and of the reason, cannot meddle with the sciences, and anticipate their matter . ”p3
In general it is not illegal but if populations of humans continue to have differential economic access to THE MATERIAL of the change and some parties in the name of the impenetrability any truth of atomism could bring anyone INCLINE to BRIBE(by income transfers) or THREATEN(by religiously motived terror) it is.
Today it not simply a friendly pedagogical decision of what to teach or not, nor is it a calculated tolerance of the “less bad”. It is certainly not the wholesale ground of allowed disadvantages enmass but the tug of a generation against another in its no longer mental but physical struggle for existence as one generation takes advantage of another. The comparison of creation and evolution certainly has shown a discursive cognition of mankind but logic continues to get in the way of the intutitve cognition necessary to resolve the most recent continutation of the debate on the details of form involved in the contrast of both (mark of negation). The recent war on terror is an example of using any organon to instruct a logic via discursed rather than intuitive consequences. Let’s hope there is some resolution before the genetic load is too much for even our genes to bear. Who is the oldest? Logic reveals evolution is older. The common view is the reverse. The only question is do we have the good will to fulfill the duty to not let the conflict of the falculties get the upper gene as popularization of the debate goes on?
This message has been edited by Brad McFall, 10-10-2005 09:31 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Parasomnium, posted 10-10-2005 10:58 AM Parasomnium has replied

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 Message 54 by robinrohan, posted 10-10-2005 10:16 PM Brad McFall has not replied
 Message 57 by Parasomnium, posted 10-11-2005 5:49 AM Brad McFall has replied

  
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5061 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 58 of 246 (250708)
10-11-2005 8:55 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Parasomnium
10-11-2005 5:49 AM


Re: locally you will not find a transition to another species
Is "transition" univocal with "missing link"?
I need to know.
Brad.
It seemed to me since you seemed to assert graduality ONLY with respect to the Modern Synthesis (correct me if I was wrong) that I did not even have to refer to my own opinion to see that this seemed mistaken prima facie.
Given that I took it that, no matter the material in a gene pool you or anyone esle could inform it with, you could not ream the thought again without being what I considered to be more thorough (point taken Robin, the use of the mystic writing pad is to popularize the discipline of the thought process). If you are only obviously waiting for the "day after" to respond, not only is that hardly fair but it is not a material response unless you are still trying to eat the goat of your own species. Mayr got stuck writing pages of opinion because he dared to sediment his notion of the species.
Are you saying specifically that there is NO comprehensibility of the "adaptive landscape" figuration of Wright either because he had graphed it either with gene frequencies OR gene combinations on the axes? I need to know quite specifically.
I had found in the process of finishing what is necessary to persuade myself that Fisher said "continentally" where I would have only thought in adequate English he would have said "continually". In the mess above I indicated that substance stability and microchromatographic columns solve the IC issue ID philosophically if they work to layer the drawing of this landscape with the most out there anti-creationist idea. The elements of that writing either are IC or are a better theory of biological change overall. You and I are both going to have to wait until more people "do" the Croizat Method but to say that you or I can not "find" the transition "to" another species given the trace back to former gene pool at "isolation" seems gratuitous.
I consider your response well informed for older biology but to simply make your language of a single isolated mating pair and a continent to be placed in the same space is harder for me to imagine than the small ex nihlio probablity that God exists. If you wait for me (oh probably a couple more weeks) it might be too late. You wont be able to swim across tangled bank by then.
So let's grant that you were clear and I was not. I took it that "locally you will not find a transition to another species" to mean that I will not be able to predict from any given pill bug that a particular pill bug population is headed for extinction relative to its neighbors. A pill bug specialist would know what are the local environmental conditions, that some roll and some do not and might even be able to think they can tell where old geology is being crawled to and where it is not (for instance other pill bugs in the water next to this population) might be moving around a place where water cuts a circle the rock and the landed bugs are found to behaviorally move around in a counter that motion clockwise circle. If the bugologist was able to notice ornamental differences in morphology and uses the macrothermodyanmic explanation of effect of Earth rotation of rotary properties of molecules then one naturalist might be able to extend his reasoning from the isolated gene pool locally to the continent of pill bug geographically thus FINDING LOCALLY a transition to another species.
If man then instituted a conservation program and relayed this information on to the future the prediction could be tested if there was no other social conflict that got in the way of the conservation or ecosystem engineering or agricultural possibility.
So are you detailing incomprehensibility of ME or Sewall Wright?
I found it quite telling that Browne
Amazon's source thought Lyell's use of digging something up in Belgium significant in a page immediately after accusing Agassiz of racist creationist biology(no matter how much ice he was under or creatures were sealed iin). This charge holds more weight culturally since WWII than biodeterminism but it ought be the other way around.
I assume I the texture of my defrictio device need not be the spell checker.
This message has been edited by Brad McFall, 10-11-2005 09:16 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Parasomnium, posted 10-11-2005 5:49 AM Parasomnium has replied

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 Message 59 by Parasomnium, posted 10-11-2005 9:43 AM Brad McFall has replied

  
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5061 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 60 of 246 (250734)
10-11-2005 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Parasomnium
10-11-2005 9:43 AM


Re: locally you will not find a transition to another species
O para of the paradox;
quote:
Your posts mainly have me try and parse their structure
That my paralogous friend IS the problem, structure. I have never really tried to link up the philosophy of structuralism to the history of biology explictly but I dont doubt that that is impossible. Darwin insisted that no new creatures could come about by a single wave of creationism and change the structure of creature when not also the creator.
Yes 'everything' is a prblem for me. "Missing Link" and "transition" can be as different as Wright and Fisher' views of bean bag change that even a Pascal could intuit. You and I are discursing instead. TOOO bad.
Ok a point-
Gould said that orgos are "dissociable" but Dakwins thought this relevant to IC when ALSO a comment on his genetic atomism. We need to hold our breath on Avagodroism instead. Time will tell if you really want to engage me or not.
I was talking about
The Evolution of Evolution Theory : NPR
LARSON page-'EVOLUTION' -see below referenced or here. The issue is the evolution of dominance as to any former point.
Well I see we are miscommunicating because I was trying to lay out the possiblity that by looking at the mum and dead beat we could tell if joey was new species or not. If you only meant that we can not tell whether the growth and development as to its phenotype is a new species, obviously this IS JOEY not joe's kids and what you could have meant overall is trivial. I was trying to say that we might be able to "read" isolation from nonadaptive traits. That's all.
I can not answer for you because the way you are responding I can not tell the difference from your reply as whether it is empirical or rational only what your are saying IF it was different than the growth and development implied by Kant
conflict htm
purely with
quote:
As Klaus Reich point out, however, Kant’s ironic closing remarks suggest another area in which philosophy and medicine could come into conflict, although here the philosophical viewpoint is to be distinguished no only from the “empirical” viewpoint in medicine, but also from the “rational” teaching on “the art of prolonging human life.” As Kant notes in one of his reflections:
The conformity to law of an organic being by which it maintains itself in the same form while continuously sloughingoff and restoring its parts is health. As far as the whole organic nature as such is concerned, this conformity to law of an organic being and alteration of the vital force imply that the creature, after it has produced offspring like itself, mingles as an individual with unorganized matter and only the species endures. Growing old and death. This is not a disease, but consummation of the vital force. (Reflection # 1538, XV2, 964-65) in Conflict of the Falculties pxxiii
if someone knows how I can keep all my thumbs in a row, let me know. I think Percy told us how , but I couldnt figure it outthen.
I have a funky transformer so I can not get all the pages on at this time.
This message has been edited by Brad McFall, 10-11-2005 11:57 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Parasomnium, posted 10-11-2005 9:43 AM Parasomnium has replied

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 Message 61 by Parasomnium, posted 10-11-2005 10:06 AM Brad McFall has not replied
 Message 63 by Parasomnium, posted 10-12-2005 3:45 AM Brad McFall has replied

  
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5061 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 65 of 246 (251046)
10-12-2005 6:51 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Funkaloyd
10-12-2005 4:36 AM


Re: Brad's Turing test.
the (a)specimen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Funkaloyd, posted 10-12-2005 4:36 AM Funkaloyd has not replied

  
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5061 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 66 of 246 (251050)
10-12-2005 7:07 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Parasomnium
10-12-2005 3:45 AM


Re: Brad's Turing test.
By predication I am not as limited as B. Russel's yard long was short. It is sad you should come to that conclusion. Perhaps you are trying to "mergesort" my posts. Try to see that Waddington's "canalization" actually spreads beyond any Freudian projectionisms no matter the circle of perceptrons you might have applied. How should I know. Here are the rest of the pages I selected for you. There are more but I thought these the most relevant.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Parasomnium, posted 10-12-2005 3:45 AM Parasomnium has not replied

  
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5061 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 78 of 246 (251231)
10-12-2005 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Ben!
10-12-2005 1:12 PM


Re: Brad's Hieroglyphics: A study
Yeah, you are correct. I was not thrifty. I suppose I left the sentence somewhere after the second word and thinking of language in general I did not want to restrict my comment only to Russel's history of logic so my mental process was already moving by the time I was supposed to have used my keys correctly and I did not do due dilligence.
Maybe instead of trying an AI on me, all anyone needs do is ask, "What would Ben have said?"
This message has been edited by Brad McFall, 10-12-2005 05:23 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Ben!, posted 10-12-2005 1:12 PM Ben! has not replied

  
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5061 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 79 of 246 (251236)
10-12-2005 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Parasomnium
10-12-2005 8:29 AM


Re: Brad's Turing test.
Thanks for the attention Para. Perhaps other such warm fuzzies could go into the
http://EvC Forum: All about Brad McFall. -->EvC Forum: All about Brad McFall.
? I do understand better what you mean now. Indeed I pray for the day we can have on the down low "all my thoughts all the time" but at last, this is still, not possible. Whatever I do in the chat-room is only going to be gossip. I really do not "chat" when it comes to the serious business of e\/c. That is the only characteristic I might posses that not all other posters might or might not share here. We all have access to the same information. There is no "game" to 'give away'. I chat with the same seriousness. Orang and the other Oman got a joke off on me in the Chat Room. Here however time is always on the side of seriousness. Of course if anyone has the same thought I have then brad2.0 materializes without me. You see that Ben could "read" me. That is all I can hype for, I hope.
This message has been edited by Brad McFall, 10-12-2005 05:28 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Parasomnium, posted 10-12-2005 8:29 AM Parasomnium has replied

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 Message 80 by Parasomnium, posted 10-12-2005 5:50 PM Brad McFall has not replied

  
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5061 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 88 of 246 (252338)
10-17-2005 7:01 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by halucigenia
10-16-2005 12:23 PM


Re: Brad's Turing test.
It is true that I realized that post-modernism opens up the possibility of taking apart biological discussions in ways that people might not have dared to do before, but honestly what appears to only appear to you is simply the results of using modern technology not literary criticism. I went to college just when the ability to cut and paste became possible. I found the freedom of writing it gave not worth giving up.
I do not think that any gibberish program could consitently learn as I have since I began posting to the internet about 5 years ago. It might convey a "feeling" as Para showed above but then why do we really need "emoticoms" etc and three finger letters like LOL to communicate on the internet. That is only done because people are not as comfortable about letting the wikepedia thing happen to their writings. This is not a prob for a poet but it is for those say at Cornell who use language writing style to hide intellectualism (good style = poor scholarship), ie the other way around than you expressed it.
The Sokal affair is an interesting comparison and this had been asked about me on EVC before as well.
EvC Forum: intelligent design, right and wrong
All of that is water under the bridge since there NOW,as opposed to when I had dispute over what statistics to use in the 80s at Cornell, are tests of causal structure FROM correlational relationships possible. For me that makes reading Wright even easier.
As to the issue of "transitional" it seems to me that there might NOT be transitionals as expected in the popular notion of the "fossil record" even though there would be synthetic intermediates not the property of any one individual. I am somewhat confident, after years of thinking it over, this is simply the Lyell legacy of use of the word "missing link".
I do know that the state of biology could not get past the ice age, really. The very first question I asked any one at Cornell was, "How can I figure out if the one map turtle head I saw that popped up over the surface of the Deleware River was indigenous to the area or not(I was not able to net the critter)?" I was told to ask the Indians rather than the Permian horizon. I wanted the turtle biology to tell me not the Delaware Indian Garbage Dump. No one knew how to get this answer for me and no one at Harvard knew how to answer Croizat with the same question.
That IS the "missing" link. It is not missing. It might not exist or current biology must do Croizat's method. Nelson and Platnick decided that Sokal's science was not enough
EvC Forum: Homochirality question
The rest was just the "joke".
That is not gibberish but in reality I was simply a bit ahead of time. You decide. I think we should be looking in the dead margins not the living genera. This does not mean that "stasis is data" is necessarily properly named by 'punctuated equilbrium'. I am guessing now, but I think when Gould said that "neo-Darwinism was effectively dead" he simply had something like my figure below the Malthus quote in mind
|_____________individualone____________|
|--birth margin--|-------LIFE-----|--death margin--| }species A
xxxx|_____________individual two__________________|
http://EvC Forum: God and the human mind -->EvC Forum: God and the human mind
but I had had
x|_____________individualone____________|
|--birth margin--|-------LIFE------|--death margin--| }species A
xxxx|_________individual two______________|
Now who is going to recognize the difference this time?
I think that is the difference between Gould and Dawkins, but who am I?
This message has been edited by Brad McFall, 10-17-2005 07:30 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by halucigenia, posted 10-16-2005 12:23 PM halucigenia has not replied

  
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5061 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 90 of 246 (252341)
10-17-2005 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by halucigenia
10-17-2005 7:24 AM


Re: Back on topic
Well there IS, such a term with meaning IF indeed Lyell moved the goal posts without getting under Agassiz's berg.
Special Creationisms are not simply phase transitions if they exist.
I know Malthus said there are "no indications" but as Aggasiz asked does not the difference of opinion really show that physicalists really do not know what the relations of organic and inorganic life ARE than that the life came from non-life??
If viruses ARE not simply consumers of bacteria but humans are then the whole story of biological change need not be your defensive position.
This message has been edited by Brad McFall, 10-17-2005 07:35 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by halucigenia, posted 10-17-2005 7:24 AM halucigenia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by halucigenia, posted 10-17-2005 9:21 AM Brad McFall has replied

  
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5061 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 92 of 246 (252455)
10-17-2005 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by halucigenia
10-17-2005 9:21 AM


Re: Brad's Justification of the term Missing Link
A couple of geologists?
You are divorcing what is "missing" and I am what is "linking".
I was trying to make sure that whatever the word "species" denotes in this thread, that "transitional" may or may not apply provided that it is distinguished from "missing link".
Personally I DO wonder if there are really no gaps in the fossil record (unless by that you mean those due to differences in taphanonmy) but I dont conclude necessarily that "stasis is data" even if it might. I tend to wonder if THAT is a conflation of Lyell and Gould brought on by the general lack of biologists being at the Gouldian Level. Mayr has to distinguish himself from Gould at just about every turn and yet he clearly saw the geologists for who they were, "It was the task of natural theology to study the design of creation, and natural theology was thus as much science as it was theology. The two edeavours, theology and science, were indeed inseperable. Consequently, most o the greater scientific works of this period, as exemplified by Lyell's Principles of Geology (1830-33) or Louis Agassiz's Essary on Classification (1857) , were simultaneously treatises of natural theology. Science and theology were fused into a single system and , as is obvioius with hindsight, there could not be any truely objective adn uncommitted science until science and theology had been cleanly and completely divorced from each other."Mayr p170 Toward A New Philosophy of Biology
I do not question common descent as much as I do that THIS divorce really occurred with Darwin. I think an adoption occured instead.
Lyell however went on to write again...and there, I think he might have had made up something that needed seperation today but was not real when he wrote. I dont know. I have not done all the scholarship.
I was able to realize that Waddington's analysis of bacteria fitness alluded to in my last sentence and carried on, to , today , with the biological community dispute between molecular biologists and whole organism biologists, scripts the "link" whether missing or present, whether properly justified or not, if one does an analysis of virus such that it is humans like you and I that consume bacteria (use them and create adapations TO them) but that viruses are to be thought rather, than as that kind of living thing human adapted to bacteria we agree we are, but as the components of an protracted analysis of different kinds of horizontal transfer of dead niche components (replication (no metabolism))instead. Of course I speak as a "biologist" to say something like that.
That however was cryptic only in the extent that I WAS trying to keep the thread to the topic of species and not cistrons. If you were thinking of molecular trees compared with species trees then, well...ok.
This message has been edited by Brad McFall, 10-17-2005 05:31 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by halucigenia, posted 10-17-2005 9:21 AM halucigenia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by halucigenia, posted 10-18-2005 6:34 AM Brad McFall has replied

  
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