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Author Topic:   Did Adam and eve really have a choice?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 196 of 219 (249385)
10-06-2005 6:51 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by Funkaloyd
10-04-2005 5:45 AM


Re: We meet again
Funkaloyd, meet me in chat...Thursday Morning here in Denver..(4:50a.m.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Funkaloyd, posted 10-04-2005 5:45 AM Funkaloyd has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 197 of 219 (249440)
10-06-2005 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by Heathen
10-05-2005 10:40 AM


Re: Impartial believer? I don't think so.
Crevo writes:
Iano, you went off the point, not me, you introduced the notion of a 'truly impartial' observer, not me. 'Truly impartial' suggests to me having no preconceptions. That cannot be said of someone who believes the bible is truth.
Crevo, if we decide to sit a play Monopoly we play within the confines of the game. The confines of the game of deciding what Genesis has to say about Adam and Eves choice can't have somebody say Genesis is some folk tale. It may be: you might believe that and I don't. That is irrelevant to the particular game. What you've done here is decided that I can't buy a hotel in Monopoly because Monopoly money isn't real. Your stepping outside the bounds of the dicsussion. There is no need to believe Genesis to be true to examine if the Adam and Eve therin had choice. Truth of it is irrelevant to that discussion.
The impartial observer I mentioned was a person who within the confines of the game makes a judgement based on what's in front of him. He knows outside the confines of the game that Monopoly money isn't real but inside the game it is. Inside the game of Genesis, God gives choice because as God he can. Inside the game God can create something from nothing, inside the game God can know everything. Inside the game you cannot expect to understand with your limited mind the things that God can do. Even outside the game you should see this. That you don't understand eg: General Relativity doesn't mean General Relativity doesn't exist.
The Bible is consistant with Adam and Eve having choice. It is logical that they did. Stating that they didn't is illogical. It would be like stating (in the game of Monopoly) that one didn't have to move one box to the next in sequence - which would make a nonsense of the rest of the game.
Are you here to find out if it all fits together - or just state they didn't have choice (without being able to overcome that logically God can do what you can't imagine) and decide the whole thing is nonsense?

"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Heathen, posted 10-05-2005 10:40 AM Heathen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by Heathen, posted 10-06-2005 10:43 AM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 198 of 219 (249449)
10-06-2005 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 189 by Heathen
10-05-2005 10:55 AM


Re: Genesis
Crevo writes:
Seems to me that this is what every christian i have ever met does in varying degrees. The minute you stop taking the Bible 100% literally, word for word.. no metaphor or allegory, you are headed on this path and thus your opinion begins to become just that. Your Opinion, nothing more.
Which means we can throw poetry out the window because it is impossible to know what metaphor and allegory mean? Willy nilly verse plucking or rejecting books of the bible is the kind of crudity I was warning about.
It is possible to deal with these things in the bible when the meaning taken is amply backed up elsewhere within it. Themes begin to arise and like pieces of a puzzle, other bits fall comfortably into place. Jar is currently arguing "damnation by works" elsewhere. The Bible can't be shown to make that argument. The pieces don't fit.
Nobody has it all correct. Nobody ever will. There are many things that are plain mystery - was the 1st day 24 hours or something else. No matter. The essential aspects: Who is God, who is man in relation to God. What is Gods plan, How do we fit into the plan etc can be easily gleaned if one wants to glean it

"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by Heathen, posted 10-05-2005 10:55 AM Heathen has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by Nighttrain, posted 10-07-2005 1:32 AM iano has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 199 of 219 (249454)
10-06-2005 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 190 by jar
10-05-2005 1:13 PM


Re: Genesis
Jar writes:
You know, YOU could ask him yourself. Perhaps you can show him the error of his ways.
iano previously writes:
Jar will pose views about God, the means of salvation etc and use quotes from the Bible and argue that they mean specific things. Then he'll say it's fairytale. Ask yourself the question: how can someone hope to comment accurately about anything regarding God when they say the material on which they rely to glean any knowledge about him - is all suspect.
On what basis do you use the bible to dicuss God. What element of it can be trusted to give you any information about God and why trust that piece?

"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by jar, posted 10-05-2005 1:13 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by jar, posted 10-06-2005 11:08 AM iano has not replied

  
Heathen
Member (Idle past 1284 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 200 of 219 (249457)
10-06-2005 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 197 by iano
10-06-2005 10:19 AM


Re: Impartial believer? I don't think so.
Iano, I'm not going to get sidetracked about the Impartial observer argument, it is irrelevant to the point of this thread. I placed myself internally, accepting what the bible said, and then used the story in the bible to point out contradictions. bringing it down from the inside if you will. I initially assumed Genesis to be truth, and then showed how contradictory it was. That is not ignoreing the initial assumptions, that is showing the flaws in the initial assumptions... the point of my argument.
I fail to see how anyone would reach a conclusion that Adam and Eve had to have had a choice. the whole point of my argument is that the apparent contradiction in the choice issue raises questions with the logic of the bible.
iano writes:
The Bible is consistant with Adam and Eve having choice
But it isn't, that's what I'm saying, The bible is the word of god right? The bible says that god created all...etc etc. (I'm not listing this out again... you know what I'm about to say)
Hence NO CHOICE... AFIAC you have not come back with any sufficient rebuttal of that.
Saying "well they must've had choice cos otherwise nothing(in the bible) makes sense" i.e. your only defence is that if I'm right.. you're wrong, only reinforces my argument.
iano writes:
Are you here to find out if it all fits together - or just state they didn't have choice
I am here to find out if there is any reasonable argument to my point. It doesn't appear that there is. I find your use of the word Logic here laughable. I have stated quite clearly why I think there was no real choice, Choice was an illusion. Your response is "But there must've been choice, cos otherwise my story falls apart" sorry... that is not very convincing, that is exactly the point I have been trying to make.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by iano, posted 10-06-2005 10:19 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by iano, posted 10-06-2005 10:59 AM Heathen has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 201 of 219 (249465)
10-06-2005 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 191 by nator
10-05-2005 8:53 PM


Re: We meet again
Schraf writes:
But I have exactly the same knowledge of good and evil as God, so I have used that ability (which is the same as God's) to judge His actions.
How do you figure 'exactly the same' God said "like" or "as" one of us. "Like" is not the same as same. As fit "as" a fiddle is not the same as being a fiddle.
Therefore, the fact that he killed EVERYTHING on the planet,
You think God was unjust but you're measuring according to your standard of just not his. By his standards he is just. What basis have you for suggesting that your standard exeeds or is fairer or better than his?
Why does God need to repent if he hasn't made a mistake?
Again Schraf, your using your standards for him. What does it mean when God repentath. How can you know the mind of God and what he means by it when he says such things.
Can you see your position as it is: a created being who is of a lower order than your creator. What created thing can be of an equal to that which created it? It appears to be a logical impossibility yet this is what you do all the time - demand equallity - nay superiority. "My created idea of justice exceeds his, my creators, sense of justice. But where did you get any sense of justice if not from him? How could your sense of justice be more correct than that of the person who created you.
Is the conflict that rages in you not indicative that your sense of justice, working within much narrower confines, is a fallen one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by nator, posted 10-05-2005 8:53 PM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by purpledawn, posted 10-06-2005 11:20 AM iano has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 202 of 219 (249468)
10-06-2005 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 192 by nator
10-05-2005 9:00 PM


Re: We meet again
Schraf writes:
I do not think that someone who rejects science in favor of a 2000 year old nomadic sheepherder's religion is in any position to be playing the "logic card" at this juncture.
What science am I rejecting? What does "2000 years", "nomadic", "sheepherder" and "religion" do to indicate that something isn't logical?
No subjective answers please - that wouldn't be science

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by nator, posted 10-05-2005 9:00 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by nator, posted 10-13-2005 10:09 AM iano has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 203 of 219 (249471)
10-06-2005 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 194 by nator
10-05-2005 9:12 PM


Re: We meet again
Schraf writes:
...a major source of needles guilt and shame, justification for persecution, genocide, slavery, torture subjegation, sexism, racism, and all-around injustice...
What about the god you appear to worship - Science. Shall we take a look at some of the downsides there??
As with science Schraf, the way it is applied is wrong - it is not wrong in and of itself. Wouldn't you agree.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by nator, posted 10-05-2005 9:12 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by nator, posted 10-13-2005 10:21 AM iano has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 204 of 219 (249474)
10-06-2005 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 200 by Heathen
10-06-2005 10:43 AM


Re: Impartial believer? I don't think so.
Lets beg to differ then
C U around...
Cheers
Ian

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Heathen, posted 10-06-2005 10:43 AM Heathen has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 205 of 219 (249478)
10-06-2005 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 199 by iano
10-06-2005 10:34 AM


The validity of theBible
The Bible is a Theological Book. It was compiled over many centuries by many people. It is an Anthology of Anthologies. The Primary purposes of the Bible were to help people learn about GOD and to help people learn about how best to live in a social community.
There were other purposes. Many of the stories are collections of the Folk tales of an emerging culture. There are the stories of "us vs them" used to differentiate this small group of people from the masses of folk outside the clan. There are the heroic tales designed to give a sense of self-worth to what was a very small and insignificant people. There are the myths, the Just So Stories designed to explain the world within the limits of knowledge of the people and their time.
When the Bible speaks about GOD it can be trusted when the message agrees with the other records GOD gave us.
BUT ...
we must always remember that the Bible is but the product of Man. When it does not agree with the records that GOD himself wrote, then we MUST go with what GOD says, not what the Bible says.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by iano, posted 10-06-2005 10:34 AM iano has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 206 of 219 (249487)
10-06-2005 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 201 by iano
10-06-2005 10:49 AM


Figurative Speech
quote:
How do you figure 'exactly the same' God said "like" or "as" one of us. "Like" is not the same as same. As fit "as" a fiddle is not the same as being a fiddle.
Please tell me you do understand the difference between "fit as a fiddle" and
Genesis 3
22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. ..."
Genesis 3:22 does not contain figurative language.
Like
having almost or exactly the same characteristics; similar; equal (a cup of sugar and a like amount of flour)
Just as a cup of sugar and a cup of flour are like amounts. God stated that man had become like one of them knowing good and evil. So we have like knowledge when it comes to knowing good and evil.

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by iano, posted 10-06-2005 10:49 AM iano has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by Heathen, posted 10-06-2005 1:17 PM purpledawn has replied

  
Heathen
Member (Idle past 1284 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 207 of 219 (249544)
10-06-2005 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by purpledawn
10-06-2005 11:20 AM


Re: Figurative Speech
iano writes:
Lets beg to differ then
C U around...
Bye then.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by purpledawn, posted 10-06-2005 11:20 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by purpledawn, posted 10-06-2005 8:31 PM Heathen has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 208 of 219 (249621)
10-06-2005 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by Heathen
10-06-2005 1:17 PM


Re: Figurative Speech
Hey Creavolution
Do you realize you answered my post and not iano?
At least I assume your response was to iano.

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by Heathen, posted 10-06-2005 1:17 PM Heathen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by Heathen, posted 10-06-2005 11:56 PM purpledawn has not replied

  
Heathen
Member (Idle past 1284 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 209 of 219 (249676)
10-06-2005 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by purpledawn
10-06-2005 8:31 PM


Re: Figurative Speech
D'oh!
sorry, that's what comes of sneaking a look at the internet through a tiny window at work!
*ahem*

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by purpledawn, posted 10-06-2005 8:31 PM purpledawn has not replied

  
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3994 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 210 of 219 (249691)
10-07-2005 1:32 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by iano
10-06-2005 10:28 AM


Re: Genesis
Nobody has it all correct. Nobody ever will. There are many things that are plain mystery - was the 1st day 24 hours or something else. No matter. The essential aspects: Who is God, who is man in relation to God. What is Gods plan, How do we fit into the plan etc can be easily gleaned if one wants to glean it
So where`s the surety of the believer? Literal or interpretation? Plain or parable or pesher? Simple or secret? For the layman or the elite? God-guided or deluded? Make sense or mysterious? One Version or another? Have scholarship or faith? Within which of the 36,000 beliefs? Find the church way or your own path? God-breathed or just plain old bad breath?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by iano, posted 10-06-2005 10:28 AM iano has not replied

  
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