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Author Topic:   Why must we believe *before* we die?
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 218 of 302 (249111)
10-05-2005 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by iano
10-05-2005 4:39 AM


Re: How to get to heaven
By all means show how you figure the goats are the followers
Let's look again at Matthew:25.
31: When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34: Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
So Jesus splits folk up into two groups, one side righteous sheep, the otherside non-righteous goats.
He explains to the sheep just why they have been selected. But what is their reaction? They are shocked. They say "Wait, we never did any of this for you. Somethings wrong here."
Now if they had been believers, followers of Jesus, they would not have reacted like that. Jesus ministry is filled with just the kind of preaching that he is discussing here. Throughout his life we see example after example of Jesus helping others. The Sheep know though that they never did anything FOR Jesus.
He then goes on to address the goats.
41: Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
And what is their reaction?
They too are shocked. Now an Atheist would not be shocked to be told that he never did anything for Jesus. Nor would a Buddhist, nor would a Hindu. Nor would an Agnostic or Jew or Rastafarian or Satanist or Pagan. They know that they never did anything for Jesus.
The only people that would be shocked would be believers, followers of Jesus, Christians. They would be surprised by the charges, they would protest and say, "When did we see YOU hungry and not feed you?"
No, the message is that belief is not the key. GOD knows your heart by your actions, not your profession.
This thread is already getting towards the witching hour but someday if you wish I will also be happy to discuss the Theological basis of TRY as the criteria.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by iano, posted 10-05-2005 4:39 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by iano, posted 10-05-2005 1:59 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 222 of 302 (249129)
10-05-2005 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 221 by iano
10-05-2005 1:59 PM


Re: How to get to heaven
Right. But what makes you think Christians are the Righteous?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by iano, posted 10-05-2005 1:59 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by iano, posted 10-06-2005 5:16 AM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 232 of 302 (249460)
10-06-2005 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 226 by iano
10-06-2005 5:16 AM


Re: How to get to heaven
Just to clarify. You appear to be agreeing that it is the sheep who are righteous and they are the ones to go to heaven? If not and you still pose it to be the goats then on what basis?
Please point out where I EVER said that it is goats that would be saved.
What I said is that the passage shows the Goats to be followers of Christ, Christians, and that the Sheep are most likely to be Non-Christians.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by iano, posted 10-06-2005 5:16 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by iano, posted 10-06-2005 12:47 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 234 of 302 (249488)
10-06-2005 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 233 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
10-06-2005 10:48 AM


Re: How to get to heaven
Now, for the record, I think that this is what Paul was speaking of when he was warning against people thinking that our own good works could "win" our salvation. Many seem to think that Paul was stating that anyone who doesn't believe in Christ will be damned -- therefore comdemning those outside the church. I, however, think that Paul was warning about the church itself becoming selfish and prideful -- a warning directly to those who do believe in Christ not to think too highly of themselves lest they begin think they can do it without God.
Hallelujah Brother, preach the Gospel.
It's those who believe they are inside, who believe they are IN, that Paul was addressing.
Thank you for a wonderful post.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-06-2005 10:48 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by iano, posted 10-06-2005 1:08 PM jar has replied
 Message 250 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-07-2005 2:24 AM jar has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 236 of 302 (249505)
10-06-2005 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 235 by Legend
10-06-2005 11:39 AM


Re: Religion and destruction of self-reliance
Sure it's impossible for mankind to be perfect. GOD knows that, we know that, and GOD is not stupid. That is why the commandment is to but try, not succeed, just try.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by Legend, posted 10-06-2005 11:39 AM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by Legend, posted 10-06-2005 12:13 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 238 of 302 (249517)
10-06-2005 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by Legend
10-06-2005 12:13 PM


Re: Religion and destruction of self-reliance
I agree. Simply supporting your position. If the requirement was success instead of trying then GOD would have set a bar that was impossible to cross. Such a GOD would be cruel beyond imagining.
Even the phrase "with all your heart" show an acknowledgement of limitations. GOD does not expect someone to do more than they are capable of.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by Legend, posted 10-06-2005 12:13 PM Legend has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 241 of 302 (249535)
10-06-2005 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by iano
10-06-2005 12:47 PM


Re: How to get to heaven
Yup.
The brethern will be those that follow GOD's wishes, most unlikely to be Christians.
Gotcha at last. But how does the passage show followers and non-followers.
Were the sheep surprised to be saved?
Were the goats surprised they were damned?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by iano, posted 10-06-2005 12:47 PM iano has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 243 of 302 (249543)
10-06-2005 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by iano
10-06-2005 1:08 PM


Re: For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not tRe: How to get to he
Sorry, I don't think I understand what you're asking here. Let me try rewording and let's see if it's close.
Verse 1: Exhortation to present ourselves for Gods use...sacrifice self for Gods requirements. Which is a reasonable thing to do (either from gratitude because we are saved OR in order to be saved/avoid damnation - but neither indicated in the verse)
We should do what is right. Not because we are saved or in order to be saved, but simply because it's the right thing to do.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by iano, posted 10-06-2005 1:08 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by iano, posted 10-06-2005 2:09 PM jar has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 263 of 302 (249805)
10-07-2005 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
10-07-2005 12:35 PM


Re: For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not tRe: How to get to he
Is there a way to know someones heart other than by observing their behavior?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-07-2005 12:35 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-07-2005 1:02 PM jar has not replied
 Message 266 by iano, posted 10-10-2005 7:46 AM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 267 of 302 (250441)
10-10-2005 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by iano
10-10-2005 7:46 AM


Everybody saved, 'cept maybe Christians
I get the feeling that I have still failed to explain my point. Let me try once again.
You said:
And there are many possible motivations behind apparant 'good deeds' Getting to heaven being one.
Personally, I think that any good deed done with getting to heaven as the motivation would neither help or even be considered by GOD.
You keep returning to Earning Salvation as though that had anything to do with my point.
Once more into the breach...
GOD granted Salvation to all mankind. It's a done deal, gratas, to everybody, to Jew and Hindu and Satanist and Pagan and Atheist and Agnostic and Muslim and Rastafarian and Christian.
GOD also expects us to TRY to do right, not succeed but to TRY.
If we do not try to do what's right or if we actively try to do what's wrong, then we can blow what was already given to us.
It really is as simple as that.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by iano, posted 10-10-2005 7:46 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by iano, posted 10-11-2005 5:01 AM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 269 of 302 (250775)
10-11-2005 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 268 by iano
10-11-2005 5:01 AM


Re: Everybody saved, 'cept maybe Christians
The words 'try' and 'trying' appear less than a dozen times in the NT. And not in connection with salvation. Whats the biblical warrant for this?
Is GOD stupid?
What practical difference is there.
There is a host of difference. You cannot earn salvation, salvation is already given to ALL mankind. You are charged, and have been since the very beginning, to do what is right. It has NOTHING to do with sin.
From whence this idea - salvation for all?
Is GOD some bling-bling Pimp Daddy worried that someone might dis him?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by iano, posted 10-11-2005 5:01 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by iano, posted 10-11-2005 11:44 AM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 271 of 302 (250789)
10-11-2005 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 270 by iano
10-11-2005 11:44 AM


Re: Everybody saved, 'cept maybe Christians
It goes to basics.
GOD would have to be stupid to expect mankind to be able to suceed in always doing right. Only a truly stupid or vindictive GOD would set a bar so high as to be unachievable.
If GOD is not stupid or vindictive then the bar must be the attempt and not the achievement.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by iano, posted 10-11-2005 11:44 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by iano, posted 10-11-2005 12:28 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 273 of 302 (250806)
10-11-2005 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 272 by iano
10-11-2005 12:28 PM


Re: Everybody saved, 'cept maybe Christians
That's why Salvation is freely given to all and all that GOD expects of mankind is that they try.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by iano, posted 10-11-2005 12:28 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 274 by iano, posted 10-12-2005 4:50 AM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 277 of 302 (251149)
10-12-2005 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by iano
10-12-2005 4:50 AM


Re: Everybody saved, 'cept maybe Christians
But it is in the Bible.
Love God with All YOUR heart.
Please look at that statment. It says try your best. It does not set an absolute limit. It says "do your best". It does not ask folk to do more than they are capable of.
Be All that YOU can be.
I see two seperate things here. Salvation is a given. It's a done deal. There are NO conditions attached, not belief, not non-belief.
To think that GOD sets some conditions on salvation, particularly ones that are so high that no one can ever reach them without his help is to imagine a stupid, insiped, narcissistic, vainglorious God.
Why in the hell would GOD grant salvation conditioned on what He can do?
The second issue is behavior. God has always expected mankind to try to do what's right. This is the message of the Bible from Genesis right on through.
Finally, there is Biblical support for my position and I've provided it for you. Matthew 25 is the single clearest explanation to be found in the Bible.It is Jesus, in his own words explaning the situation. And nowhere in there will you find any reference to belief, or of God doing the things for man.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by iano, posted 10-12-2005 4:50 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by iano, posted 10-12-2005 2:22 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 279 of 302 (251182)
10-12-2005 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by iano
10-12-2005 2:22 PM


Re: Everybody saved, 'cept maybe Christians
We don't have a lot more time here but let's try to work through this.
Do you believe GOD is reasonable?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by iano, posted 10-12-2005 2:22 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by iano, posted 10-12-2005 2:38 PM jar has not replied
 Message 281 by iano, posted 10-12-2005 2:40 PM jar has replied

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