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Author Topic:   Why must we believe *before* we die?
iano
Member (Idle past 114 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 226 of 302 (249370)
10-06-2005 5:16 AM
Reply to: Message 222 by jar
10-05-2005 2:02 PM


Re: How to get to heaven
iano writes:

Last verse. Righteous go to eternal life. There are only one group called righteous in the passage. The sheep, the ones on the right. There is no talk of a switch of righteousness in the passage. Speculation that this switch could take place for reasons you give is not shown here.

jar writes:

Right.

Just to clarify. You appear to be agreeing that it is the sheep who are righteous and they are the ones to go to heaven? If not and you still pose it to be the goats then on what basis?

This message has been edited by iano, 06-Oct-2005 10:20 AM


"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....
This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by jar, posted 10-05-2005 2:02 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by jar, posted 10-06-2005 10:46 AM iano has responded

iano
Member (Idle past 114 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 227 of 302 (249395)
10-06-2005 7:31 AM
Reply to: Message 224 by Legend
10-05-2005 7:04 PM


Re: Religion and destruction of self-reliance
Legend writes:

Can you show me where in Matthew, Mark or Luke Jesus says, or clearly implies, that no man can do all works necessary for salvation, or that perfection is needed ?

"Love God will all your heart soul and mind". That is the command. I don't have to show this is impossible. It is self-evident.

Let's assume -for argument's sake- that this is the case in the passage above, as you mention. The obvious question then is : why does Jesus when directly asked doesn't tell the man that he cannot be saved by what he does ??!!

What Jesus is doing here is shown by what Paul describes at the end of Romans 7 in his "oh wretched man.." piece. Jesus tells man what he needs to achieve eg: "love God with all your heart. Why does he leave it to man to figure out that he can't do this? One obvious reason springs to mind. The best way for somebody to be convinced of something is to figure it out for themselves. Only when man has figured out:

a) the standard is perfection
b) he falls far short of the standard
c) falling short means hell/separation from a holy God

may he possibly...

d) admit his need for a saviour and cry out to God for mercy and thus
e) achieve what God wants for man: man being position in his rightful place before God - man dependent on God

- Why does Jesus say that the Son of Man will repay each man according to his conduct (Mat 16:27) ?

As stated, this passage is not a "how to be saved" passage ( unless you can show otherwise). Works matter and they will have reward/punishment. Just not in the context of salvation - which is what we are discussing.

- Why does Jesus say that on judgement day, the saved are separated from the unsaved on the basis of the works that they did (Mathew 25:31-46) ?

I think we've been over this. I say "works as consequence of being saved". You say "saved as a consequence of works". Stalemate as far as this passage goes. It could be either for want of further supporting evidence.

- why does Jesus tell the rich man to obey the commandments and sell his posessions in order to gain salvation (Matthew 19:16-17) ?

"If thou wilt be perfect" then.... What does the rich man do. Fails at perfection - just like all of us. Jesus knows covetness is this mans sticking point and goes straight to it. The rich man is not prepared to put Jesus first - he is not prepared to love God with all his heart.. If he had been talking to me he would have applied his sermon on the mount teaching and asked "have you ever looked at a woman lustfully" and I would have walked away too. Then it would have been "It is easier for a camel to get through the eye of a needle than for a lustful man to get heaven"

It is worthy to note at the end of the passage the disciples reaction to the situation "Who then can be saved?!" They weren't rich. Most aren't rich. Why say "who can be saved" if the sense they were getting out of it just applied to the rich only giving up their riches

Jesus reaction? "With men this (camels getting through eyes of needles) is impossible but with God all things are possible" Matthew 25:26

Which ties in nicely with Romans 3:21 "But now a righteousness from God...(as opposed to from man) is revealed..." It is impossible for man to get righteousness. God makes getting to heaven possible by providing the righteousness we need himself. Jesus' righteousness given to us..by faith.

And the answer is that Jesus in the Synoptics teaches clearly and simply that good behaviour will gain you access to heaven

By all means show where good behaviour is shown to suffice rather than perfect. You say clearly. "All your heart..." for example doesn't show anything half measures or the best you can. Forget Pauls assertion of perfect if you want. But show less than perfect is sufficient in connection with salvation. Where are these clear verses - in conection with salvation.

Jesus castigates the Pharisees, he thinks they are hypocrites. In Matthew he advises people to "do as they [Pharisees ] say, not as they do". So the righteousness of the Pharisees is not an unexceedable standard, as you claim.

It doesn't matter what Jesus thinks of the Pharisees - he is giving instruction to others. He knows THEY think the Pharisees are the most righteous of all and he tells THEM that THEY must exceed what in THEIR minds is the highest righteousness. Look at it from THEIR perspective. What would THEY have thought given that instruction if not - "Crikey!!"?

Edited: typo

This message has been edited by iano, 06-Oct-2005 02:55 PM


"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....
This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by Legend, posted 10-05-2005 7:04 PM Legend has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by Legend, posted 10-06-2005 11:39 AM iano has responded

iano
Member (Idle past 114 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 228 of 302 (249397)
10-06-2005 7:47 AM
Reply to: Message 225 by Legend
10-05-2005 7:22 PM


Re: Religion and destruction of self-reliance
Legend writes:

even assuming that:
1) the author of Luke is the author of Acts
and
2) he was the travelling companion of Paul

How do you KNOW the author of any book is the author of any book?. This line of reasoning just kicks the ball into touch. Luke is commonly accepted as the author of the Gospel of Luke and Acts.

the fact remains that Luke's gospel is not an original work but a re-writing of Mark and/or Matthew.

It is commonly accepted that Mark wasn't a disciple of Christ and was no eyewitness to events. His is not an original work - it is a re-writing of accounts given by eyemitnesses.

I don't know where your taking this Legend. Pauls writings dismissed, Lukes dismissed but then also Marks. You don't include John in your list of acceptable books it seems. Whose writings are acceptable to be examined?

Maybe the intent of Luke was to bring the story into line with the developing Pauline Christian theology, which had begun to emphasize faith over works.

Works has not been established yet :) IF it is then this won't be a maybe it would be a certainty. Works first okay?

This message has been edited by iano, 06-Oct-2005 12:48 PM


"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....
This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by Legend, posted 10-05-2005 7:22 PM Legend has not yet responded

iano
Member (Idle past 114 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 229 of 302 (249399)
10-06-2005 7:54 AM
Reply to: Message 223 by Faith
10-05-2005 2:19 PM


Re: Religion and destruction of self-reliance
Faith writes:

Hey GOOD POINT.

Legend writes:

even assuming that:
1) the author of Luke is the author of Acts
and
2) he was the travelling companion of Paul

I wish :)

I wonder will I bump into Legend one day in heaven. If so, he'll look at me a bit sheepishly when he remembers this tack. But better sheepishly than goatishly heh?!!

:)


"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....
This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by Faith, posted 10-05-2005 2:19 PM Faith has not yet responded

iano
Member (Idle past 114 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 230 of 302 (249407)
10-06-2005 8:33 AM
Reply to: Message 215 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
10-05-2005 11:54 AM


Re: How to get to heaven
Mr ExNihilo writes:

I see what your saying here. On the surface these things all appear to be strictly works orientated. However, Catholic doctrine teaches...

Sorry not to get into a longer talk on this Mr Ex. You sound like you know your stuff and remind me of what clear, unemotional debate should be like. My trouble here is there's not far to go to end of thread and it's become a what-does-the-bible-say-about works. To go into ex-biblical RC doctrine strays even further off topic than things already are

By all means a biblical case for "damnation by works".


"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....
This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-05-2005 11:54 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-06-2005 10:48 AM iano has responded

Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12445
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 231 of 302 (249436)
10-06-2005 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by Parasomnium
09-30-2005 7:09 AM


Re: Dissolving in Ocean vs Living in Heaven
As to the sub-topic of this post, It should be noted that not only is there neither Male nor Female in Heaven, there is certainly no room for competing egos. The Lucifer/Satan tale taught us that. As for the drop of water analogy, it is very apt.
Parasomnium writes:

Don't you ever get tired of yourself?

In other words, we must decrease so that God can increase within us? A true nonpantheistic communion of relationship between God and humanity!

Don't get me wrong, I don't mean that as a deprecating remark about your personality, but as a possible example of the motivation you asked about.

Many of us (charismatics) often have inflated egos that we attribute to God. It is humbling to admit when I am wrong.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Parasomnium, posted 09-30-2005 7:09 AM Parasomnium has not yet responded

jar
Member
Posts: 30997
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 232 of 302 (249460)
10-06-2005 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 226 by iano
10-06-2005 5:16 AM


Re: How to get to heaven
Just to clarify. You appear to be agreeing that it is the sheep who are righteous and they are the ones to go to heaven? If not and you still pose it to be the goats then on what basis?

Please point out where I EVER said that it is goats that would be saved.

What I said is that the passage shows the Goats to be followers of Christ, Christians, and that the Sheep are most likely to be Non-Christians.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by iano, posted 10-06-2005 5:16 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by iano, posted 10-06-2005 12:47 PM jar has responded

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 4722 days)
Posts: 708
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 233 of 302 (249464)
10-06-2005 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 230 by iano
10-06-2005 8:33 AM


Re: How to get to heaven
No problem. :)

If I could just explain a few things in detail though -- I think all Christians do agree that salvation comes by the motion of the Holy Spirit.

In this sense, as a "pneuma" or "wind" or "breath" of the Lord, it is generally believed that God's spirit is the agent which moves each individual to do what God wills. Or, as the Scriptures state in Ephesians 2:10, we generally all agree in some way that humanity is created in Christ "to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

Putting it in simple terms, it appears as though God has in some way "fore-ordained" the paths that we should walk in. And, if we simply follow the motion of the Holy Spirit, like a sailboat being pushed along by a wind, we will not veer away from our fore-ordained paths.

In saying this though, man also appears to have the capacity to resist the motion of the Holy Spirit. Again, I suppose it's much like a man on a sailboat riding the wind. So long as they do not resist the winds that push the sailboat, they will not end up capsized or shipwrecked. Just as the sailor has no control over the wind that carries his vessal along the waters, the believer in God likewise has no control over the Spirit that moves him along God's fore-ordained paths.

Consequently, in both the case of the sailor and the believer, neither can take the credit for moving themselves along their path. In both cases it was an external source which empowered them to move along -- the sailor gives credit to the wind whereas the believer gives praise to God's Spirit.

In the case of the sailor we see that, if he did take credit for getting somewhere, he's actually claiming to control the wind itself which pushed him along -- and yet in reality he has no control over where the wind guides him. For him to make this claim would be a rather futile and vain claim.

Similarly, in the case of the believer, we see that, if he did take credit for attaining salvation, he's actually claiming to control God himself -- and yet in reality he has no control over where God guides him. For him to make this claim would be a rather futile and vain claim.

Like the wind, we understand that God guides us wherever he pleases. We hear the sound of his voice, can feel his Spirit moving us internally along his desired will, but we cannot tell exactly where God comes from or where God is going. It is the same with everyone born of the Spirit.

It is in this sense that we Catholics say we cannot accomplish our own salvation. Or stated more simply, we can do nothing to earn our salvation. Our salvation is merited solely by God's grace as we are moved by his Spirit. To think otherwise, in my opinion, leads us into the adversary's trap of pride, conceit, and arrogance.

Now, for the record, I think that this is what Paul was speaking of when he was warning against people thinking that our own good works could "win" our salvation. Many seem to think that Paul was stating that anyone who doesn't believe in Christ will be damned -- therefore comdemning those outside the church. I, however, think that Paul was warning about the church itself becoming selfish and prideful -- a warning directly to those who do believe in Christ not to think too highly of themselves lest they begin think they can do it without God.

For example, Paul says:

NIV writes:

For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.

Consequently, I do think that Christ addressed this very matter in the gospels. For example, Christ is quoted as basically saying that we should not think too highly of ourselves -- and he warns that we should not wait around for a reward after we complete God's work. More specifically, he says that we should not become too proud of doing God's work because there's still much work to be done -- and when we do a good work, we should not think to highly of ourselves because the work that we did for God was what God expected us to do in the first place.

Perhaps Christ's greatest statement regarding how the Spirit of God works can be seen as follows:

NIV writes:

When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?"

They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."

"But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"

Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven."

In other words, as far as I am able to determine, Simon Peter didn't figure out that Jesus was the Christ via his own intellect or power. The knowledge did not come by natural descent, human decision, or a husband's will. Simon Peter, via a revelation from the Spirit of God, uttered his famous words as he was moved by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

Indeed, according to the Scriptures themselves, no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit. Even prophecy never had its origin in the will of man -- but was generated as men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

Although we Christians do not necessarilly agree with each other regarding what might constitute an authentic manifestation of God's Spirit (cf. sacramental v. personal), we Catholic Christians do nonetheless believe that the same is true for our "good works" too.

In other words, just as no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit, we also believe that no one can do "good works" except by the Holy Spirit too.

Just wanted to make that clear.

________________

I apologize if I've somewhat derailed this thread. But I just felt prompted to explain this in more detail as the Spirit led me so that no confusion or misunderstanding would result.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by iano, posted 10-06-2005 8:33 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by jar, posted 10-06-2005 11:21 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has responded
 Message 239 by iano, posted 10-06-2005 12:27 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30997
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 234 of 302 (249488)
10-06-2005 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 233 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
10-06-2005 10:48 AM


Re: How to get to heaven
Now, for the record, I think that this is what Paul was speaking of when he was warning against people thinking that our own good works could "win" our salvation. Many seem to think that Paul was stating that anyone who doesn't believe in Christ will be damned -- therefore comdemning those outside the church. I, however, think that Paul was warning about the church itself becoming selfish and prideful -- a warning directly to those who do believe in Christ not to think too highly of themselves lest they begin think they can do it without God.

Hallelujah Brother, preach the Gospel.

It's those who believe they are inside, who believe they are IN, that Paul was addressing.

Thank you for a wonderful post.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-06-2005 10:48 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by iano, posted 10-06-2005 1:08 PM jar has responded
 Message 250 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-07-2005 2:24 AM jar has not yet responded

Legend
Member (Idle past 3179 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 235 of 302 (249502)
10-06-2005 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 227 by iano
10-06-2005 7:31 AM


Re: Religion and destruction of self-reliance
iano writes:

Love God will all your heart soul and mind". That is the command. I don't have to show this is impossible. It is self-evident.

There's nothing self-evident about it.

If I tell you 'run with all your might and I'll give you a fiver' am I asking you the impossible ?? Does it mean you can never run with all your mght ? does it mean I'll never give you a fiver ?! I would only do that if I was a fraud and never intended to give you a fiver in the first place. Then I would say 'ah, but you can't run with all your might, so you didn't earn your money! Why are you suggesting that the Son of God would act in a similar manner ?

You (and Paul) are the ones who are suggesting that loving God with all your heart and soul is impossible - not Jesus.

Jesus was directly asked what to do to get saved.. If there is nothing you can do then Jesus lied to the man. He never told him 'You can never do all that, but have faith in me and you'll get saved.'

Jesus repeatedly said 'do good, love God, love your fellow man and you'll gain eternal life'. It's clear and it's simple.

You're just playing semantic games in order to fit Paul's theology into what Jesus says in the Synoptics.

* Please tell me what does Jesus say about salvation in the Synoptics? what should one do to gain life ? *

No quoting Paul and John, no wild speculation, no wishful thinking - just what does the text say ?

Remember, you said:

quote:
either the bible is consistent or it isn't

I don't remember you saying ' If the Bible isn't consistent we'll shoehorn it until it is' !

iano writes:

What Jesus is doing here is shown by what Paul describes at the end of Romans 7 in his "oh wretched man.." piece. Jesus tells man what he needs to achieve eg: "love God with all your heart. Why does he leave it to man to figure out that he can't do this? One obvious reason ...


can you, for once, just read what the text says without quoting Paul ? The context of Matt is Matt, not Paul!

quote:
Why does Jesus say that on judgement day, the saved are separated from the unsaved on the basis of the works that they did (Mathew 25:31-46) ?

iano writes:

I think we've been over this. I say "works as consequence of being saved". You say "saved as a consequence of works". Stalemate as far as this passage goes. It could be either for want of further supporting evidence.

If I was a Christian this would be the point where I would say 'for Christ's sake, man!!'
The supporting evidence is the text!! It says :

Mat 25:41: "And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me. "
Mat 25:41: "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels "

Q: What is this passage about?
A: the judgement of the nations.

Q: What are the nations judged on?
A: their treatment of their fellow people [least of these my brethren]

Where on earth, or heaven, do you see "works as consequence of being saved" ???

The only stalemate here is in your preconceptions.

The text is clear and simple.


"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by iano, posted 10-06-2005 7:31 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by jar, posted 10-06-2005 11:44 AM Legend has responded
 Message 244 by iano, posted 10-06-2005 1:49 PM Legend has responded

jar
Member
Posts: 30997
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 236 of 302 (249505)
10-06-2005 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 235 by Legend
10-06-2005 11:39 AM


Re: Religion and destruction of self-reliance
Sure it's impossible for mankind to be perfect. GOD knows that, we know that, and GOD is not stupid. That is why the commandment is to but try, not succeed, just try.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by Legend, posted 10-06-2005 11:39 AM Legend has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by Legend, posted 10-06-2005 12:13 PM jar has responded

Legend
Member (Idle past 3179 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 237 of 302 (249515)
10-06-2005 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 236 by jar
10-06-2005 11:44 AM


Re: Religion and destruction of self-reliance
I didn't say it's possible to be perfect, I said you don't have to be perfect to love someone with all your heart and soul,. like iano suggests.

In Message 224 I also quoted Matt 19:17 where Jesus says that only God is perfect, but guess what? perfection is not required to be saved!


"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by jar, posted 10-06-2005 11:44 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by jar, posted 10-06-2005 12:18 PM Legend has not yet responded
 Message 245 by iano, posted 10-06-2005 2:00 PM Legend has not yet responded

jar
Member
Posts: 30997
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 238 of 302 (249517)
10-06-2005 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by Legend
10-06-2005 12:13 PM


Re: Religion and destruction of self-reliance
I agree. Simply supporting your position. If the requirement was success instead of trying then GOD would have set a bar that was impossible to cross. Such a GOD would be cruel beyond imagining.

Even the phrase "with all your heart" show an acknowledgement of limitations. GOD does not expect someone to do more than they are capable of.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by Legend, posted 10-06-2005 12:13 PM Legend has not yet responded

iano
Member (Idle past 114 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 239 of 302 (249518)
10-06-2005 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
10-06-2005 10:48 AM


Re: How to get to heaven
Mr Ex writes:

If I could just explain a few things in detail though -- I think all Christians do agree that salvation comes by the motion of the Holy Spirit...

And an excellent piece to read. I am by and large in agreement with what you say throughout. No one says Lord except by his spirit...

However, whilst you explain well how it is not "salvation by works" or by earning our way to heaven, you haven't covered "damnation by works" (which is well on topic) which still puts salvation in our hands.

In saying this though, man also appears to have the capacity to resist the motion of the Holy Spirit.

I don't know if you are in agreement that the only person who has the spirit is a person who is in Christ, ie: only Christians. On what basis do you hold, which you appear to, to the idea that exerising this ability to resist will result in loss of salvation for someone who is Christ given that, for example "There is now no condemnation for those that are in Christ".

Every man resists to some degree - no one responds perfectly to the Spirits guidance. Where is the cut off point for salvation/no salvation and how is that determined? Or is it a case of "you'll find out when you get there"? What is the biblical warrant for the RC view if any?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-06-2005 10:48 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has not yet responded

iano
Member (Idle past 114 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 240 of 302 (249529)
10-06-2005 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by jar
10-06-2005 10:46 AM


Re: How to get to heaven
Jar writes:

What I said is that the passage shows the Goats to be followers of Christ, Christians, and that the Sheep are most likely to be Non-Christians.

Gotcha at last. But how does the passage show followers and non-followers. I know you said it but that's just you (with respect) saying it.

I notice something else but haven't figured out the significance of it yet. When he talks to the righteous he says "to the least of these my brethern..." But to the unrighteous he just says "to the least of these..."

Hmmm?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by jar, posted 10-06-2005 10:46 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 241 by jar, posted 10-06-2005 12:52 PM iano has not yet responded

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