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Author Topic:   No Abiogenesis, no Evolution, then what?
nwr
Member
Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 13 of 173 (249665)
10-06-2005 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Yaro
10-06-2005 10:22 PM


Again, I would like to discuss what the ramifications would be if evo. and abio. were to be proven wrong/or never existed all together.
The invisible pink unicorn did it.
There is still a possibility of panspermia. In particular, if the universe has existed forever, then it is conceivable that life always existed, and is distributed via panspermia (suitable organic molecules being distributed into space). Granted, current cosmology suggests a finite age for the universe, which would rule this out. But I think it hasn't yet been completely ruled out.

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 Message 18 by Faith, posted 10-07-2005 12:09 AM nwr has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 21 of 173 (249685)
10-07-2005 12:34 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Faith
10-07-2005 12:09 AM


Faith writes:
So there is no origin, but only distribution in this model? Nevertheless it is apparently a naturalistic model, right? Nothing supernatural.
Right. The idea is that life has always existed, and so abiogenesis is not required. See, also, Message 15.

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 25 of 173 (249727)
10-07-2005 8:16 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Faith
10-07-2005 12:36 AM


So then we have three possibilities?
That depends on what is being counted.
I guess you are ignoring the assumptions of the OP, and talking about ways that life could be present. In that case, yes, I am aware of three:
(1) Spontaneous abiogenesis through natural means;
(2) Creation by a supernatural being;
(3) Panspermia in a universe where there has always been life.
However, it is my opinion that (2) is indistinguishable from (1). That is, God works through nature, not against it, so a creation event would be a spontaneous event that occurred through natural means. And current cosmology makes (3) look unlikely.

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 95 of 173 (290069)
02-24-2006 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by inkorrekt
02-24-2006 11:20 AM


Re: What is the other option?
How many people have difficulty in assembling a puzzle? I am sure there are a lot. If this simple process requires intelligence, how could you imgine a lot, lot, lot, lot more complex structures like the cell just be brought into existence without any external power?
The analogy is bad.
A bird builds a nest. I expect that takes some intelligence, but not a lot. We could consider it a puzzle, take it apart, and examine the complexity of getting every piece back into exactly the same position. But the bird never needed to solve that complex puzzle. It can put the pieces back together in a different arrangement and it would still work as a nest.
Maybe there are many different ways of building something that functions as a cell. Maybe the cell itself evolved from something far simpler.

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 99 of 173 (292572)
03-06-2006 12:11 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by inkorrekt
03-05-2006 11:13 PM


Re: What is the other option?
My anology is not wrong. I have already given the analogy of the computer. i am not going to repeat this.
I'm glad that you are not going to repeat it.
Nevertheless, the puzzle analogy is bad. Treating it as a puzzle assumes that there is only one way that there could be a living cell. But you have given no argument or evidence to support that assumption.

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 Message 98 by inkorrekt, posted 03-05-2006 11:13 PM inkorrekt has replied

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 Message 100 by inkorrekt, posted 03-07-2006 6:21 PM nwr has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 103 of 173 (293116)
03-07-2006 8:56 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by inkorrekt
03-07-2006 6:21 PM


Re: What is the other option?
The bottom line, is even in order to assemble apuzzle, some basic intelligence is necessary.
But we still are not dealing with puzzle solving. In a typical puzzle, there is a fixed set of components, and a unique way to successfully put them together. For abiogenesis, there were many components and many possible ways to successfully put them together.
If aperson does it continuously, then he develops the learned behaviour.
Self reproducing life only had to arise once. It didn't have to be done continuously. If it occurred once by random combinations, that was sufficient.
In any case, the topic we are supposed to be discussing is whether there are alternatives to abiogenesis. Let's get back on topic.

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 Message 100 by inkorrekt, posted 03-07-2006 6:21 PM inkorrekt has replied

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