Why must we believe *before* we die?

the problem is that the point of contention here is that the Synoptics contradict Paul. You can't use Paul to show that Matt, Luke and Mark meant something else to what they said - when that's the whole argument in the first place! The context of Matt is Matt, not Paul! According to Luke, Jesus told the lawyer that loving God and his neighbour will get him saved. You're saying that Jesus meant something else, not because the text suggests so but only so you can shoehorn it into Paul's teachings!I've shown you three books of the Bible (Matt, Mark & Luke) where each one and all portray Jesus teaching that salvation is based on behaviour. Whether they saw or heard him is irrelevant here. What they say is clear: it's what you do that saves you.Now it's your turn to show me where and how Paul backs up Matt, Mark & Luke on the matter of salvation .Show me where scripture is backing up scripture!

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

I already did! In response to Zacchaeus 's statement that he's given his money to the poor and restored all injustices he's done to his fellow men. That's what the text says : "And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord, Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor, and if I have wrongfully exacted aught of any man, I restore fourfold. And Jesus said unto him, To-day is salvation come to this house, forasmuch as he also is a son of Abraham." (emphasis is mine)Event 1: Zaccaheus declares his good deeds Event 2: Jesus proclaims him saved. I'm not ignoring the rest of the account, it's just that the rest of the account is just a prelude and doesn't answer the question 'why was Zacchaeus saved ? ' Verse 8 does. No, I won't. The context of Luke is Luke, not John!

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

Can you show me where in Matthew, Mark or Luke Jesus says, or clearly implies, that no man can do all works necessary for salvation, or that perfection is needed ?Let's assume -for argument's sake- that this is the case in the passage above, as you mention. The obvious question then is : why does Jesus when directly asked doesn't tell the man that he cannot be saved by what he does ??!!Is he lying to the man ? Or simply teasing him ?!Ofcourse all the other questions still remain:- Why does Jesus say that the Son of Man will repay each man according to his conduct (Mat 16:27) ?- Why does Jesus say that on judgement day, the saved are separated from the unsaved on the basis of the works that they did (Mathew 25:31-46) ?- why does Jesus tell the rich man to obey the commandments and sell his posessions in order to gain salvation (Matthew 19:16-17) ?- why does Jesus want us to be like the good Samaritan ? tell me do you think the Good Samaritan would have got saved or not?And the answer is that Jesus in the Synoptics teaches clearly and simply that good behaviour will gain you access to heaven. Jesus never said or even implied that noone can do all works necessary for salvation. Paul does. Your argument about 'all your heart' implying the unachievable is but mental gymnastics to justify your pre-supposition that Paul cannot be wrong. Well, Jesus does say that only God is perfect: "And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is , God" (Matthew 19:17)But guess what?! perfection is not required to be saved : "but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17)Jesus says perfection is optional : "Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven" (Matthew 19:21)so, there goes your argument. since when did the Pharisees had the very highest standard of righteousness ????! Jesus castigates the Pharisees, he thinks they are hypocrites. In Matthew he advises people to "do as they [Pharisees ] say, not as they do". So the righteousness of the Pharisees is not an unexceedable standard, as you claim.

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

even assuming that:1) the author of Luke is the author of Acts
and
2) he was the travelling companion of Paulthe fact remains that Luke's gospel is not an original work but a re-writing of Mark and/or Matthew.If you're copying someone else's work , there's only so much you can change. There are actually a couple of hints in Luke where the author tries to introduce some novel ideas that don't exist in the other two gospels (e.g. Luke 7:44-50), and ends up kind of contradicting himself!Maybe the intent of Luke was to bring the story into line with the developing Pauline Christian theology, which had begun to emphasize faith over works.

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

There's nothing self-evident about it.If I tell you 'run with all your might and I'll give you a fiver' am I asking you the impossible ?? Does it mean you can never run with all your mght ? does it mean I'll never give you a fiver ?! I would only do that if I was a fraud and never intended to give you a fiver in the first place. Then I would say 'ah, but you can't run with all your might, so you didn't earn your money! Why are you suggesting that the Son of God would act in a similar manner ?You (and Paul) are the ones who are suggesting that loving God with all your heart and soul is impossible - not Jesus.Jesus was directly asked what to do to get saved.. If there is nothing you can do then Jesus lied to the man. He never told him 'You can never do all that, but have faith in me and you'll get saved.'Jesus repeatedly said 'do good, love God, love your fellow man and you'll gain eternal life'. It's clear and it's simple.You're just playing semantic games in order to fit Paul's theology into what Jesus says in the Synoptics.* Please tell me what does Jesus say about salvation in the Synoptics? what should one do to gain life ? *No quoting Paul and John, no wild speculation, no wishful thinking - just what does the text say ?Remember, you said:

quote:

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either the bible is consistent or it isn't

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I don't remember you saying ' If the Bible isn't consistent we'll shoehorn it until it is' ! can you, for once, just read what the text says without quoting Paul ? The context of Matt is Matt, not Paul!

quote:

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Why does Jesus say that on judgement day, the saved are separated from the unsaved on the basis of the works that they did (Mathew 25:31-46) ?

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If I was a Christian this would be the point where I would say 'for Christ's sake, man!!'
The supporting evidence is the text!! It says :Mat 25:41: "And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me. "
Mat 25:41: "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels "Q: What is this passage about?
A: the judgement of the nations.Q: What are the nations judged on?
A: their treatment of their fellow people [least of these my brethren]Where on earth, or heaven, do you see "works as consequence of being saved" ???The only stalemate here is in your preconceptions.The text is clear and simple.

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

I didn't say it's possible to be perfect, I said you don't have to be perfect to love someone with all your heart and soul,. like iano suggests.In Message 224 I also quoted Matt 19:17 where Jesus says that only God is perfect, but guess what? perfection is not required to be saved!

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

When did I say that only Matthew is acceptable ?? On the contrary I've been asking you all along to compare what Mark, Matthew and Luke say about salvation against what Paul says about salvation.so far, you've only been using Paul's teachings to interpret the Synoptics and been making assertions that are not supported neither by the text nor by common sense (e.g "Love God with all your heart" = impossible).I'm still waiting....

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

* Brilliant!! * [clapping sound] I couldn't have said it better myself!Now take this reasoning and apply it to:Luke 10:27, Matthew 16:27, Mark 12:32-34, Luke 19:8-9, Mathew 25:31-46QED!

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

I think you misunderstood me. You said "If Pauls Gospel conflicts with Lukes Gospel then Luke nor Paul mention this".I said that even if Luke was indeed the author of both Luke and Acts and the follower of Paul, he still doesn't have grounds for commenting on Paul because the gospel he (allegedly) wrote is not his own theology but a rehash of Mark and Matthew, so he's not expressing his personal views but re-telling a story. There are indications that he's sprinkled his own views in there on a couple of occasions, but -by and large- Luke's gospel tells the same story as Matt and Mark, chapter by chapter - that's why they're called the synoptics.There could also be a thousand other reasons why Luke doesn't denounce Paul in Luke's gospel, but we can only speculate on those.All I'm saying is that Luke's gospel is not his own rhetoric (like Paul's letters) , he 's just telling a story. Therefore there's no reason to be surprised that he doesn't denounce Paul in it. the reason is simply that we're examining what the synoptics say about salvation, not what John says! Like I've said, Luke, Matt and Mark are all telling the same story. And what they have Jesus say on salvation is very different to what Paul says on salvation.Let's first establish what the synoptics teach on salvation and then we can have a look at Paul and John all you want!I'm still waiting for you to tell me what the synoptics teach on salvation without quoting Paul and John.

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

I'm now beginning to suspect that you didn't misunderstand me but are deliberately trying to steer this towards a different and distracting direction.Let's stay focused :Back in Message 136 you asked: Both me and others in this thread proceeded to give you a number of laws, mainly from Mark, Matthew and Luke, that Jesus claimed will get you to heaven.You then tried to rebutt this by claiming that Jesus didn't mean what he said in the Synoptics, using quotes and theology from Paul and John as the context of interpretation of the synoptics. I'm quoting you from Message 141There is nowhere in the synoptics that allows you to infer this. This is what Paul says. You're applying Paul's theology to the synoptics,You've also said in Message 207
So this is where we are. It doesn't matter whether Matt, Luke & Mark are true or not, we're just looking at what they say about salvation.We're trying to determine whether the Bible contradicts itself internally or not, like you said.Whether Mark was an eyewitness or not is irrelevant here, it's what he says about salvation that matters.
Whether Luke was Paul's follower or not is irrelevant here, it's what he says about salvation that matters.What do Matt, Luke & Mark tell us that Jesus said you can do to get saved ?Not what Paul says, not what John says - what does Jesus say according to Matt, Luke & Mark ?once we've established what Jesus in Matt, Luke & Mark says about salvation then we can look at Paul, John or whoever else you want.Like you said, we're just looking at whether the Bible contradicts itself internally or not.So, what do Matt, Luke & Mark tell us that Jesus said you can do to get saved ?

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

I agree with the admin that this has drifted OT.However, the phrase "saved by the bell" springs to mind ..till we meet again iano,

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

So, when Jesus says do this, do that and you'll be saved when directly asked how to gain salvation, is he just misleading the lawyer, or plainly lying to him ?Jesus is not speculating on theoretical possibilites, he's asked directly how to get saved. The lawyer wants to get saved, but he doesn't know how to. Jesus tells him. The lawyer walks away with the impression that if he obeys the commandments, loves God and loves his neighbour he'll be saved. If the way Jesus told him is unachievable, then Jesus just lied to the man.

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

Just to put this into perspective, the word 'ransom' (Greek: 'lytron') was used at the time to denote the money a slave paid to his master in exchange for his freedom.So the questions that need to be asked, In Jesus' case, are:- Who paid the ransom ?
- Who received it?
- Who was set free ?

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

that would suggest that God and/or Jesus is subordinate to the Devil. ah yes, the old "God killed himself to appease himself..." adage.

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."