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Author | Topic: No Abiogenesis, no Evolution, then what? | |||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Are you able to list a possible natural mechanism for the same reason? Not for the same reason, but I'm very interested in considering all the possibilities. I simply can't think of any.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Just because a natural option has not been thought of yet doesn't mean a natural option doesn't exist. I guess, but why is that relevant. If we can't think of one we have nothing to discuss. This message has been edited by Faith, 10-07-2005 12:07 AM
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
There is still a possibility of panspermia. In particular, if the universe has existed forever, then it is conceivable that life always existed, and is distributed via panspermia (suitable organic molecules being distributed into space). So there is no origin, but only distribution in this model? Nevertheless it is apparently a naturalistic model, right? Nothing supernatural.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I can't think of any. Can you?
This points out a pretty big flaw in christian/creationist reasoning. It basicaly says "I give up, I'm satisfied not knowing and settling for the answer that makes me 'feel' good". I'll ignore your imputation of motives to me and just ask, can you think of any?
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Hey Faith. I'm gonna reply to both your posts in this one to prevent confusion. CREATION is the only other option, not "God." I'm confused... how can you have a creation event without a god? Like aliens or somethin? I'm simply trying to cover the field. There seem to be various theories floating around, various creator "gods" and aliens yes. I don't know what all. Gaia is an idea. I'm not sure what that is. Sort of a conscious universe or something like that. Whether "creation" is done by "Gaia" I don't know.
I believe there is only one God, as shown us in the Bible, but in this conversation I only say that there are just the two options, that is, either life arose by purely natural blind chemical processes, or a mind created it.
See Faith, I think thats a false dichotomy. Just because abiogenesis and evolution may be false, I don't see how it points to a consious mind at all... the universe is pretty mindless no matter how you slice it, I don't see how one can deduce consiousness from it. Speaking of the Biblical God and Biblical creation, this isn't deduced from anything, it is known by revelation. It is a viable theory held by many and if the odds are against all naturalistic origins it gives weight to theistic creationism.
Either it just happened to happen or it was intentionally created. I see no other options. So you'd have to show me that there are other options.
But this has never been the case. Biology, nor any other science, has ever been based on the bible. For example, what knowledge of neurology does the bible empart to us? Nothing. We'd simply never have come up with evolution or abiogenesis. Our genetics, our neurology, whatever, would take creation for granted and otherwise not be different from those sciences as they now exist. We'd probably look for evidence of DEvolution in genetics as that would follow from our Biblical assumptions rather than evolution. But otherwise, science as usual.
I say this because it is important to note, that even without evolution/abiogenesis, science would still be inherantly naturalistic and observational. No god or bible would be required. Maybe not required, but it would be nice to acknowledge the Creator of it all, and thank Him for it, and in fact depend upon Him to increase our scientific knowledge.
Maybe I should ask you this way: Should evo. and abio. be deposed, do you feel that a god would be the only explanation left? As I say above, Christians, independent of science, believe God is the Creator of all things. We EXPECT naturalistic explanations ultimately to fail. So when evo and abio are deposed, as you put it, for us that is simply proof of what we know already. This message has been edited by Faith, 10-07-2005 12:25 AM
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nwr Member Posts: 6408 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Faith writes:
Right. The idea is that life has always existed, and so abiogenesis is not required. See, also, Message 15.
So there is no origin, but only distribution in this model? Nevertheless it is apparently a naturalistic model, right? Nothing supernatural.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
So then we have three possibilities?
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
Here's another supernaturalist alternative to natural abiogenesis.
First we assume Vitalism - that there is a "life energy" apart from matter, and it is this animating principle which is the true nature of life.. Then we assume that there are sparks of "life energy" drifiting around the universe and that they have an organising effect matter they encounter If a spark encounters sufficient matter of the right sort it produces a vehicle for itself which it enters and animates. Thus we do not have true abiogenesis (life exists apart from matter) but we do not have creation by a mind either.
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Thor Member (Idle past 5910 days) Posts: 148 From: Sydney, Australia Joined: |
Awww, I was about to suggest that but you beat me to it! Oh well.
Anyway yeah, sort of like, Life creates itself. Like a 'ghost' of life is out there and forms up into physical life when the right conditions are there. I think that is a reasonable middle ground alternative between creation by something else and abiogenesis. Supernatural but spontaneous too. BTW, I don't actually believe it. Just trying to think laterally! The probability that someone is watching you is directly proportional to the stupidity of your action.
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nwr Member Posts: 6408 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
So then we have three possibilities?
That depends on what is being counted. I guess you are ignoring the assumptions of the OP, and talking about ways that life could be present. In that case, yes, I am aware of three:
(1) Spontaneous abiogenesis through natural means;
However, it is my opinion that (2) is indistinguishable from (1). That is, God works through nature, not against it, so a creation event would be a spontaneous event that occurred through natural means. And current cosmology makes (3) look unlikely.
(2) Creation by a supernatural being; (3) Panspermia in a universe where there has always been life.
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Yaro Member (Idle past 6496 days) Posts: 1797 Joined: |
Ok, I think thus far we have established that even without evo. and abio. we have several possible alternative theories as to how life got here.
Are we agreed? Now then, since this has been shown. What ground has the creationism position gained? How does god now win by "default"?
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nator Member (Idle past 2169 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Just because a natural option has not been thought of yet doesn't mean a natural option doesn't exist. quote: Wasn't it your implication that because you or any of us, might not be able to think of other natural options for how life could have arisen, that it somehow follows that there must be a supernatural cause?
quote: Sure we do. We can discuss why you feel the need to fill the gap in knowledge with "Godidit" and stop looking for a solution instead of leaving it at "we don't know", and continue working on the solution. Put another way, are you saying that, by definition, anything about the natural world that we do not currently understand, or may never understand, must have a supernatural cause? This message has been edited by schrafinator, 10-07-2005 09:44 AM
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Jazzns Member (Idle past 3911 days) Posts: 2657 From: A Better America Joined: |
Life created the universe. The entire universe is a consequence of life rather than a harborer or creator of it.
No smoking signs by gas stations. No religion in the public square. The government should keep us from being engulfed in flames on earth, and that is pretty much it. -- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show |
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Tusko Member (Idle past 101 days) Posts: 615 From: London, UK Joined: |
deleted for being completely irrelevent. Sorry.
This message has been edited by Tusko, 10-07-2005 11:50 AM
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Yaro Member (Idle past 6496 days) Posts: 1797 Joined: |
awww, i liked it
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